UKC Forums - "We are not judging statues"

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Posted by Cynthia on 06-10-2013 03:00 PM:

"We are not judging statues"

I found this article somewhere. It was about conformation shows, but can be applied to shows in general. It was written by a judge to the exhibitors. I would hope that some would be able to glean some information from it and apply it to their show career.

*******************
We Are Not Judging Statues

by Lisa Dubé Forman •

In my brief five years of judging, I cannot count how many times I have
communicated to exhibitors that I am not judging a statue. I offer this
as relaxing encouragement to them while they attempt to correct their dog's
stance as it is being examined. However, many handlers persist, sometimes
in vain, to replace dog's feet in positions that the dog has already decided
were uncomfortable. Immediately after a correction, many dogs will then
go on to move their other feet. At this point, it is my policy to recommend
to the exhibitor not to bother fidgeting with the dog, as I politely tell
the handler I can feel everything I need to feel, regardless if the dog has
moved its leg or shifted its weight. Simply, I am judging a live animal
and not a statue. Some exhibitors will listen, others persist perhaps because
they perceive the dog's movement as an affront to their handling skills.
For clarity, references to handler is meant to be all-embracing, for any
person showing a dog.

Here on this point, I offer a suggestion to exhibitors. I typically walk
my dogs into their show stack. I usually do not fidget with their feet
unless they are in an exaggerated stance such as "posting." This allows the dog
to feel comfortable with the process of examination, especially the
Sighthound breeds who can be more averse to a stranger's approach and hands-on exam.
Moreover, walking the dog into a stance is much more relaxing as the dog
usually will land and stand over their ground in a comfortable position.
Remember, the sole purpose for dog shows is not a contest as to which dog
can stand still the longest, in some cases in an excessively exaggerated
posture. The purpose of a dog show is to select and adjudicate over the
best of the stock to perpetuate the breed. I will quickly digress here to
expound on my remark about exaggerated postures. One such profile example is
frequently seen in Afghan Hounds, with many of the dog's rear feet
stacked well behind the seat bones of the hindquarters. If you dropped a plumb
line from the Ischial Tuberosity (rear seat bones), it is supposed to touch
the front of the toes of the rear feet, however, due to exaggeration in
stance or construction, that plumb line, in some cases, is far forward of the
rear feet. Commonly, when stacked in such a manner and before the dog can
move, he must first bring the rear legs back up under his pelvis, with some
returning to a normal stance before stepping off. Other dogs, while
standing naturally or even four square, are able to lead off immediately with
their front leg. If such exaggerated stances were correct for the structure of
that breed, then that dog would have no need to bring its rear up and
under him first before he could lead off on a front leg.

Not all exhibitors are skilled and simply fussing. My biggest point of
disagreement while observing some exhibitors is the clumsy effort to
correct a stack by reaching over the back, grabbing the loin and pulling the
dog's hindquarters towards themselves. This action does not achieve a relaxed
stance in which the judge can reflect upon and appreciate a lovely
silhouette. Instead, this grappling produces a dog who was just dragged
into position and who now is flexed and tense. Never mind it is very
uncomfortable for observers – effectively making us cringe – and usually
the handler does not stop there. After they drag the back end of the dog over
to a side profile, they begin wrestling feet into place. This struggle is no
more graceful than the first as the exhibitor pushes and pulls, then
drags feet backwards and forward. Sometimes it is comical as the judge gives up
or is impatient and approaches the dog while the exhibitor is still
wrestling with the feet, head bent down with their buttocks up in the air. A
solution for inexperienced exhibitors is taking five minutes every day to work
with the dog by teaching it to walk forward into a stack. The stack does not
have to be perfect because, again, we are not judging sculpture. Teach or
train the dog on its show lead — not a walking lead so they can differentiate
when they are working — and train the dog to walk slowly forward as they place
their front legs straight up and down with elbows directly under their
shoulder blades, their hocks perpendicular to the ground. When showing,
if one leg is back somewhat, don't fret, leave it. If the dog's stance is
still unacceptable to you, correct it after the judge has completed their exam
and not while the judge is examining the dog. After the judge is finished,
quickly readjust or if it is a body shift then slowly walk the dog
forward one or more steps to the desirable stance. Every judge should allow the
exhibitor the few extra seconds, if the handler chooses to do so, to walk
the dog forward a step to correct a bad stack. This is courteous to do so
since it is the exhibitors hard-earned money paying the judge for the
evaluation, not vice versa. Likewise, walking into a stack is a bonus for
bona-fide judges, those not looking at their wristwatch, as most dogs
tend to relax and settle into themselves quickly. No matter the handler's
choice, just please stop wrestling.

Conformation purebred dog events have been transformed into a showing and
grooming contest. Today we observe many firmly established handling
habits. Exhibitors will place huge emphasis on a dog's stack while on the table
or ramp. If the dog moves, the exhibitor constantly makes corrections, as if
the judge will not be able to feel the placement, angulation and length
of the bones and muscling, or quality of coat if a foot is out of place.
Moreover, exhibitors need to remember that judging does not take place on
these elevated platforms, only examinations. Dogs are only judged on the
ground. If the opposite were true then each of these dogs would be
exhibited on a table or ramp in the ring always. Perhaps this habit has manifested
itself so widely because exhibitors follow the lead of many professional
handlers who have perfected the ability to emphasize perfect, statuesque
stacks. Consider an exhibitors reaction the instant a dog moves their
head to look around while stacked in the lineup. Many have a death grip on the
muzzle. A reminder to everyone in our sport, dogs should not receive
extra consideration for being able to stand still the longest.

Other established and trying habits include handlers overemphasizing
certain breeds abundance of thin, loose skin, wrinkles or folds. Short-coated
breeds are "what you see is what you get." Still, we have exhibitors
over-accentuating by grasping and pulling the skin up and forward. The
judge is not blind and can clearly see and feel the skin's looseness, along
with scapular placement, without the aid of the handler. As an extra factor, I
have heard disapproving comments by spectators. Although we seasoned
fanciers understand this does not hurt the dog, no amount of reassurance
can change some people's minds. Taking into account the purebred dog
controversy in place today, we can do away with such unnecessary elaboration. Another
annoying and dispensable habit during examination are handler's
stretching dog's neck, pulling upwards, almost lifting the dog's front off the
ground and then flipping the ears over both eyes — all in a grandstanding effort
to feature the neck on a smooth or short-coated breed. Speaking plainly, a
judge is quite capable of discerning a proper neck without all this
dramatizing, especially since most are approved to judge heavy-coated and
long-coated breeds. If the judge requires or encourages such elaboration
on a neck then they should reevaluate their role in our sport.

Dog shows were not meant to be a contest of animal or people showmanship.
Our shows were not created or designed to determine who is the more
flamboyant handler, for instance the handler standing out nearly four
feet in front of the dog waving a piece of bait in their free hand. Some
handlers claim that the dog who is posed looking very much like a sculptured
bronze is, indeed, in a natural stance. Occasionally, this may be true and
usually can be determined by directing the handler to move the dog around to the
center of the ring and having them stop without touching the dog. Few
times will the dog land as they were previously stacked. Many times, the dog
will land and stand much more naturally, which a true breed expert will
appreciate moreso than an over-dramatized stance. In truth, show dogs
increasingly now are trained to stop and self-stack in dramatic poses
without interference by the handler. Yet, what I would find most telling
is if we were to see the same dog running and playing in the yard or field
they most likely stop and stand in an entirely different manner contrary to
dog show pageantry.

Aficionado judges appreciate the dog without the glamour and fanfare. An
enhancement to this and what I consider exciting is to find a truly
well-made dog who feels good under your hand who may not be the showiest
entry in the ring but who epitomizes the breed standard. To be able to
"find" a great dog in the show ring is the ultimate reward. My usual
response is to quietly laugh when I read judges interviews or hear their
commentary on dogs they have awarded. I am sure you all are familiar
with, "The dog gave it their all,"; "The dog asked for it and could not be
denied,"; "The dog showed beautifully," ; "The dog was so on," ; "The dog
has attitude." Conversely, "The dog did not perform that well,"; "The dog
could have been more on."

Taking into account these critiques, it is no wonder almost all
exhibitors fret constantly about a misplaced foot, constantly adjusting and
readjusting legs, death grips on the muzzles, stretching out necks, pulling the skin
over the dog's face and so on. These dispiriting comments all highlight
the non-essentials of our sport. Why place more value on the dog flying
around the ring at the end of their lead, many at incorrect speeds? Why do
judges value the dog in an aggrandized, statuesque stance moreso than its
competitor(s) who may fidget but who stands over their ground in a
comfortable, confident manner sans embellishment? Doesn't breed type and
symmetry trounce being overdone and flamboyant? We should all worry about
the general direction in which our sport has developed. It is deeply
concerning and saddening for many veterans. Over the years, our sport has
been steered towards glorifying and worshipping the most highly trained
and unflinching statues. This is a show with live animals, not a statue
exhibition. Though I would not nor am I suggesting a dog should be
penalized for being perfectly trained and very stylishly shown, at the same time a
judge should not bestow additional merit on this dog over its competitors
based upon this ability to attract, in many cases, undue attention.
However, we are very much aware of this or similar preferences by some judges
through their critiques. Absent from reviews are conclusions on a specimen's
structural integrity, the virtues of that dog's priceless breed type
expounding on the near flawless shape, describing the breed's topline and
underline, discussing the prosternum, its fill and relative station and
length of ribbing. Going into detail about the dog's diameter and length
of bone, the breed standard's ideal length, strength and breadth of loin or
the opposite, well-coupled with strong breadth of loin, or remarks on the
symmetry of the dog's conforming length and placement of scapula/humerus
in relation to the femur/tibia, or any mention of superior muscling. On
occasion, we do hear vague comments about headpieces as they are first
discernible and easiest to describe. All the same, the comments provide
little insight such as, "What a lovely head." We do not read instructive
remarks about proper length of planes with degree of desired stop, eye
set and shape, width or shape of skull and muzzle.

Overall, in place of educational particulars, we are provided nebulous,
frivolous comments. This may be due in part to judges' inexperience with
formulating and expressing their opinions, remarks and reactions to the
dogs. Many quality judges with a keen eye instinctively know a good or
great dog when they see one and have trouble conveying why, then there are
other judges who skate by with a quick but insubstantial remark about, "how
spot on" a dog was in the ring. What is the value of saying this? How does
that have anything to do with the breed standard for which the dog is judged?
It is no wonder that our sport is filled with uninstructed, naïve exhibitors
and breeders. If they hear or read a judge's explanations about the
winning dogs and all they are offered are the aforementioned, meaningless
comments, then it should come as no surprise that our sport has devalued. These
comments undermine the importance of, the genuine purpose of our sport,
why and how it began. It does not have to be this way. We judges can effect
change, have a marked influence on breeder and exhibitor priorities
which, in turn, will return focus on breeds' standards of excellence. As I am
very fond of repeating, we need to get back to the basics.

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Posted by H. L. Meyer on 06-10-2013 03:49 PM:

Informative

Article written by a A K C judge about Afghan and Irish Wolfhounds. ! I did glean "some" information. thanks

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Posted by blackflagginit on 06-10-2013 05:24 PM:

I can see almost everything I need to see on the ground, long before they ever reach a bench. the bench is just for closeup stuff......like say bite/muscle tone/ect

Posted by Showman on 06-10-2013 06:20 PM:

WELL

I THOUGHT THIS WAS WHAT U.K.C. BENCH SHOWS WAS.ARE WE TALKING ABOUT USING BENCHS R JUST STACKING THEM ON THE GROUND.ANOTHER THING WHAT PERCENT SHOULD A JUDGE USE FOR GAITING R IS IT THE JUDJES OPION I WAS TOLD A FEW SHOWS AGO BY A JUDGE HE JUDJES 90% ON THE GROUND.IF THERE'S. A STANDERD TO GO BY THEN THERE MUST B A
%

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Posted by Cleo on 06-10-2013 07:01 PM:

Thank you for sharing that!

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Posted by Cynthia on 06-10-2013 07:41 PM:

UKC® Coonhound Bench
Show Rules, pgs 46-48

25. Dogs must be evaluated both while gaited and
shown on the bench. In order to properly evaluate
the coonhound, the dog must be compared to the
standard on the bench to assess its conformation
and gaited to determine the efficiency and athleticism
of the dog’s locomotion.

there is not a percentage listed per se, however both must be used. if the judge does not know how to use one or the other and is only going thru the motions is useless and is doing so to satisfy the rules and those in attendance and to say that they did "gait and stack" the dogs. then there is a problem and that is where education comes in.

the judge needs to know that just because the handler can stack a statue to hold position for time unlimited does not mean handler can hide cow hocks, hackney gait, or numerous other items that can ONLY show up when gating the dog around the ring.

if the dog cannot get from point A to point B without tripping over itself, not making the most of it stride, then there are problems with its conformation (build). these are things a handler cant hide.

Posted by Robert Starke on 11-01-2013 10:20 PM:

UKC BENCH show

Hi,

UKC has a show for gaiting and showing on the ground. It is called a confirmation show. It is for all breeds, like an AKC show.

I hunt and show COONHOUNDS. I don't hunt sight hounds or show them. Coonhounds put their nose to the ground instinctively. They don't trot around with their nose in the air.

For Coonhounds, it is called a bench show... not a "GAIT SHOW" jmo.

Good Hunting,
Robert

PS Go back to having specific breed standards and the point system. The bench shows will go back to being judged objectively not subjectively. jmo

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Posted by HistoryNutt on 11-01-2013 11:17 PM:

Re: UKC BENCH show

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Starke
Hi,

UKC has a show for gaiting and showing on the ground. It is called a confirmation show. It is for all breeds, like an AKC show.

I hunt and show COONHOUNDS. I don't hunt sight hounds or show them. Coonhounds put their nose to the ground instinctively. They don't trot around with their nose in the air.

For Coonhounds, it is called a bench show... not a "GAIT SHOW" jmo.

Good Hunting,
Robert

PS Go back to having specific breed standards and the point system. The bench shows will go back to being judged objectively not subjectively. jmo

Well said Mr. Starke

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Posted by Cleo on 11-02-2013 10:22 AM:

I have been told just this year by a judge that I lost a BS because my dog didntstand still.
Ukc needs to keep their judges on the same page. There are too many differances in the judges.

Posted by georgef072007 on 11-02-2013 03:48 PM:

I use the gaiting for about 50 % of my decision on determining the winners. As far as a dog not standing still, well I figure they are just dogs and that's what they do sometimes. That being said, they do need to be under control enough to determine what kind of shoulder and hip angles they have, if their back and top line are as they should be , and if they have good hock angulation. It's hard to give a good look at a dog doing somersaults and trying to jump off the bench or lay down. I have seen handlers drag their dogs around the show ring area, and then the same dog look great on the bench and have them question me as to why they didn't win.

Do the judges need to get on the same page ? Maybe, but I think that educating the handlers and getting them on the same page is more important than anything else.

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Posted by Sandi on 11-02-2013 04:30 PM:

very frustraiting isnt it Cynthia.... I wish all had the ability to understand the importance of breed standards and RULES! in whole not just what part they wish to focus on. Every coonhound breed does list gait in the breed does it not? So why wouldn't it be considered? I guess we keep breeding for correct movement and those "bench" dogs can keep cowhocked, straight shoulder and weak toplines and in 20 years we shall see what the breeds look like then. And the saddest part is there are BSJ out there that are not understanding the importance of movement but IMO UKC didnt help by turing top 10 into a divided bench dog vs conformation dog :/ so.............

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Posted by Ky Show Girl on 11-02-2013 05:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Sandi
very frustraiting isnt it Cynthia.... I wish all had the ability to understand the importance of breed standards and RULES! in whole not just what part they wish to focus on. Every coonhound breed does list gait in the breed does it not? So why wouldn't it be considered? I guess we keep breeding for correct movement and those "bench" dogs can keep cowhocked, straight shoulder and weak toplines and in 20 years we shall see what the breeds look like then. And the saddest part is there are BSJ out there that are not understanding the importance of movement but IMO UKC didnt help by turing top 10 into a divided bench dog vs conformation dog :/ so.............

i dont care how they judge them.i cant control that but what
we can do is test the winners.

Posted by Cleo on 11-02-2013 05:35 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by georgef072007

Do the judges need to get on the same page ? Maybe, but I think that educating the handlers and getting them on the same page is more important than anything else.

That will never happen

Posted by Cleo on 11-02-2013 05:50 PM:

I dont see how gaiting a dog to show movement has become such a bad thing
to so many that BS. Without watching them move how do you see what handlers hide?

Dont bash me for that question. Tell me why its not a good thing and why so many dont like it.

Posted by Ky Show Girl on 11-02-2013 06:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cleo
I dont see how gaiting a dog to show movement has become such a bad thing
to so many that BS. Without watching them move how do you see what handlers hide?

Dont bash me for that question. Tell me why its not a good thing and why so many dont like it.

you cant hide nothing if you show by the breed std.
like article says straight how do you hide straight?
to many people or trying to make bull dogs out of them.

Posted by Cleo on 11-02-2013 08:42 PM:

You hit the nail on the head. You cant hide nothin' if ya aint got nothin' to hide.

Posted by blocksporthound on 11-02-2013 09:45 PM:

Question...I have asked this before and I don't think I ever really got an answer. What is the purpose of bench showing? Is it to evaluate breeding stock? Most specifically since bench shows go hand I hand with night hunts was the original intent to evaluate the conformation of the dogs that hunt??Then eventually dogs were just specifically being bred for the bench? I was looking on the UKC Coonhound bench show rules today and noticed they do have a great outline with parts of dog labeled as well as angles. Honestly I see a lot of bench dogs that are way too straight in the shoulder and have no rear angulation. The hunting dogs on the other hand ( since I see a lot of them) to me seen to have better bone and substance and more rear angulation and better shoulders. I agree with the questions asked....why not gait them? It really is the best way to evaluate them. A handler cannot manipulate them whilst moving. Easier to see the "engine" work.

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Posted by blocksporthound on 11-02-2013 09:49 PM:

http://www.ukcdogs.com/res/pdf/2011CBRulebook.pdf
Page 27 that's the diagram I am referring to. Just looked at it today.

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Posted by Ky Show Girl on 11-02-2013 10:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by blocksporthound
Question...I have asked this before and I don't think I ever really got an answer. What is the purpose of bench showing? Is it to evaluate breeding stock? Most specifically since bench shows go hand I hand with night hunts was the original intent to evaluate the conformation of the dogs that hunt??Then eventually dogs were just specifically being bred for the bench? I was looking on the UKC Coonhound bench show rules today and noticed they do have a great outline with parts of dog labeled as well as angles. Honestly I see a lot of bench dogs that are way too straight in the shoulder and have no rear angulation. The hunting dogs on the other hand ( since I see a lot of them) to me seen to have better bone and substance and more rear angulation and better shoulders. I agree with the questions asked....why not gait them? It really is the best way to evaluate them. A handler cannot manipulate them whilst moving. Easier to see the "engine" work.

i dont understand hunt dog and show dog are we back to labeling dogs.history tells us 3 breeds came from 1 and they
all came from fox hounds 1 of the oldest reg. dog what the pt system to many parts that dont move that people know
nothing about just feet and legs is all the newbie no.

Posted by Ricochet17 on 11-03-2013 03:01 AM:

Strike and Tree my dog.

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Posted by mark booth on 11-03-2013 06:08 PM:

Let me tell this to everyone. I have professionally handled dogs in AKC all breed conformation shows and shown dogs in ukc bench shows which were my own The judge is just giving his opion on which is the best dog on that day. As far as hiding faults I can hide faults in a dogs gait and when the dog is stacked I can hide even more. Which is the handlers job but when that judge goes over the dog with his hands feeling the structure of the dog
I can't hide anything. So in my opinion that the most important part that the judge has or should do.

Just my two cents worth

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