UKC Forums - What breed to hunt!

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Posted by last chance on 03-21-2013 12:03 AM:

What breed to hunt!

How many people on this board claim to be redbone breeders but are always looking into other breeds to cross into their so called redbones {halfbreeds or crossbreds}.I hunt redbones and black & Tans but I feel that if I have to look outside of breed that I'm hunting then it's time to switch breeds!I surely not going to crossbreed them and register them redbones because they meet the breed stanard because it really isn't a redbone!

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Posted by Tim Trone on 03-21-2013 12:30 AM:

Re: What breed to hunt!

quote:
Originally posted by last chance
How many people on this board claim to be redbone breeders but are always looking into other breeds to cross into their so called redbones {halfbreeds or crossbreds}.I hunt redbones and black & Tans but I feel that if I have to look outside of breed that I'm hunting then it's time to switch breeds!I surely not going to crossbreed them and register them redbones because they meet the breed stanard because it really isn't a redbone!

You got that right.

Posted by Brother David on 03-21-2013 01:05 AM:

Always wanting something better than what i am leadind is what keeps me out at nite . We all need to remember that alot of the red breeding was done for show purpose only and we will have to work hard as hunters not breeders to make sure we are breeding COONDAWG TO COONDAWG not just some gyp that came in to get what we want out of breed

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-21-2013 01:25 AM:

Beauty is more than skin deep....and so is what makes a redbone different from other breeds. Some get it and some don't. If they want to crossbreed their redbones...let them single register them the breed of the non redbone parent if they allow it...because the redbone breed does not. Thats just my opinion. We have what we need to raise our breed in competition circles if we would use the right breeding techniques. We don't have to "steal or borrow" the results of another breeds hard work and efforts...we need to put in our own hard work and effort and improve our redbones through smarter and more selective breeding. Then we can be proud of what we have and how we got there. It is hard to be proud of something you stole from someone else and we do not need to take that route. Redbone possess accuracy that other breeds wish they had.....and we will wish we had back if we lose it through crossbreeding. We have the lines that have all the traits we need or want in a dog for competition....we just have to breed the right way to get those traits into the dogs we want. It can positively be done...I promise you that. But it won't be done by poor breeders who are frustrated by the results they are getting from the redbone crosses they are making...so they want to see if crossbreeding will give them better results. If they don't know what they are doing in redbones...they sure as heck will not do any better in extreme outcrosses like crossbreeds. If you want to be a better breeder....educate yourself and talk to those who have had and continue to have success with the crosses they make in their breeding programs. If this breed isn't kept pure when it does reach the top...it will never get the respect that it and all the breeders who have spent their lives promoting it deserve....because everyone will say that they only got better because they crossed redbones with other breeds. Some may not care how they get there....but if your a true redbone person....I think deep down....you probably do care. A redbone is not just an all red dog....it is unique in alot of ways and its accuracy is just one of the things that set it apart from other breeds besides it color.

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Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
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My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
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(((( Current Favorites ))))
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Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
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Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
To enjoy lots of pics and videos of out redbones, find me on Facebook
as Shenandoah Maxey

Posted by rickp on 03-21-2013 04:09 AM:

If someone thinks another breed is so good why don't they just get one. . Mine are real Redbone and I like it that way.

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-21-2013 04:25 AM:

A true redbone breeder....breeds true redbones!

Posted by timber hunter on 03-21-2013 05:38 AM:

I dont need

to Cross Breed, I have one here that is good as any hound in any breed, why would I want to breed him to another??

I would say the guys getting most excited about this stuff got some poor stock of dogs!!

JMO

Posted by mrg on 03-21-2013 05:39 AM:

maybe if the no votes stay on one post and the yes votes stay on another seperate post there is a possibility they won't delete it.

Posted by mrg on 03-21-2013 05:48 AM:

i went out this morning and ask all my hounds if they were pure or not, some had white in their chest, some orange colored, some with white feet, some with black and tan markings down the center of their back, some dark red,,,,but when ask they all nodded their head yes. guess i am on the right track. not about to mix mine up.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-21-2013 05:57 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by mrg
maybe if the no votes stay on one post and the yes votes stay on another seperate post there is a possibility they won't delete it.

The only place yes or no votes will make a difference is after a motion is made at the association meeting. I think before those posts were deleted and a few people got banned.... the case was pretty much made for both points of view. Now its up to the membership to decide if we want a pure redbone breed...or if we want to let experimental breeders mix any breed they want with redbones and then pick out the pups that look enough like redbones and single register them as "redbones". I for one will vote to keep crossbreeds out....but I am only one vote. I will have plenty to say in the discussion before a vote if a motion is made to allow crossbreeds....but I will respect what the majority wants.
I want to see redbones winning more....and maybe someday see one win a world championship....but it sure won't make me very proud to be a redbone person if a crossbreed wins it that just "looks" like a redbone....because no matter how red it looks.....the breed of that dogs other parent will quickly try to take the credit for that win....and how can we argue....after all the dog is 50% of two different breeds...no matter what it's single registered as or looks like. If you are proud to hunt redbones....then why not hunt a REAL honest to God full blooded redbone???

Posted by mrg on 03-21-2013 06:07 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by mrg
i went out this morning and ask all my hounds if they were pure or not, some had white in their chest, some orange colored, some with white feet, some with black and tan markings down the center of their back, some dark red,,,,but when ask they all nodded their head yes. guess i am on the right track. not about to mix mine up.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-21-2013 06:31 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by mrg

I just went out and looked at each one of my redbones....and none have white on them....or black on them and they are all pretty much medium red. And when I think back over the redbones I have had in the past....they were all the same way. I know alot of the dogs in their pedigrees and know what they are out of all the way back to Outlaw Jessie....maybe thats why they look that way.
Now this line is a winning line of dogs...in my opinion, dogs from this line are some of the biggest winning redbones of the past 2 decades. So why would I want to go outside their breed? I know this line well...know it is pretty pure to at least 7 or 8 generations.....and I don't see all this white or black in this line. I consider it about as pure as any redbone line out there because I know and have hunted with many of the dogs that go back 6-7 generations. Maybe thats why they look like redbones are suppose to and when they have a litter...almost every pup...every time looks that way. I am getting some of the best results from crosses I have made recently that I have ever seen in this breed...so I can see no reason whatsoever to go completely outside the redbone breed.

Posted by rickp on 03-21-2013 02:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mrg
i went out this morning and ask all my hounds if they were pure or not, some had white in their chest, some orange colored, some with white feet, some with black and tan markings down the center of their back, some dark red,,,,but when ask they all nodded their head yes. guess i am on the right track. not about to mix mine up.

Sounds like yours all meet breed standard . There is plenty of variety in the Redbone breed and has been since the start . So why out cross to another breed ?

Posted by oklared on 03-21-2013 04:44 PM:

MAYBE WE NEED TO ASK WHY SPOTED DOG GUY'S ARE DOING THE CROSSES ON REDBONES. " KANE" AND OTHERS.

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-21-2013 05:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by oklared
MAYBE WE NEED TO ASK WHY SPOTED DOG GUY'S ARE DOING THE CROSSES ON REDBONES. " KANE" AND OTHERS.

Maybe they are trying to add a trait from the redbones that they like and are missing in their own breed?

Posted by oklared on 03-21-2013 07:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
Maybe they are trying to add a trait from the redbones that they like and are missing in their own breed?

WELL THATS WHAT I WOULD EXSPECT

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-21-2013 08:31 PM:

Kind of makes you wonder why the "top" breed needs to bring in any trait from another breed, doesn't it?
I know one thing for sure....My redbone sure does beat alot of walkers and english dogs when the leaves are off.....just sayin

Posted by countryboys on 03-21-2013 09:47 PM:

I don't have anything against a crossbred dog. Would I take my female to a walker? I ain't gonna lie, I have considered it. Will I, no. But if I was gonna get a better dog, I prob would, I don't know. They are all mixed up anyways.

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Posted by oklared on 03-21-2013 11:08 PM:

HYBRED VIGOR

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-21-2013 11:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by oklared
HYBRED VIGOR

How often does "hybred vigor" happen in crossbreeds? I mean I hear people use the term to describe dogs like Little Red.....but if a dog like her is the resultof hybred vigor....what do we call all the crossbred dogs who get culled for not living up to the breeders who expected the whole litter to have "hybred Vigor"? I mean...for every example of hybred vigor like Little Red....there are hundreds....maybe thousands of crossbreeds that display no such hybred vigor....or even above average abilities. So what do we call it when the same thing happens in a purebred strain of dogs when they produce a dog like Mr. Clean...or Moonlight Kate.....or Mojo... all of whom were some of the biggest winners of their breed? It can't be hybred vigor..... so what is it? I have always called these dogs freaks. Now I don't mean that in a bad way...I just mean that they only pop up every few years between thousands and thousands of other pups produced....these dogs just pop up without warning like a freak accident. You didn't expect them....and you cannot reliably reproduce more of them. So thats what I mean by freak. These type of dogs are not just top level dogs...they are the best of the best...probably less than 1% of all dogs produced year over year. We know they happen and we know they happen in every breed...even crossbreeds occasionally.... so why do we call it something different when its a crossbreed? Maybe it is not at all "the result" of a crossbreed...but the result of the same thing that causes it to happen more often than not in the breeding of two purebred dogs. Think about it......

Posted by rickp on 03-22-2013 03:59 AM:

I believe this thread was started wich breed to hunt. I'm hunting Redbones not crossbred . There is a difference.

Posted by Tim Trone on 03-22-2013 05:34 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by countryboys
I don't have anything against a crossbred dog. Would I take my female to a walker? I ain't gonna lie, I have considered it. Will I, no. But if I was gonna get a better dog, I prob would, I don't know. They are all mixed up anyways.

Your taking your female to the right dog already. Have you and Andrew hunted together yet.

Posted by countryboys on 03-22-2013 05:49 AM:

No Tim haven't got the chance to make it down there. I know he's the right dog. I was just using a theory. I am kinda hoping she comes in soon before this pup I got gets ready to hunt.

Posted by oklared on 03-22-2013 04:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
How often does "hybred vigor" happen in crossbreeds? I mean I hear people use the term to describe dogs like Little Red.....but if a dog like her is the resultof hybred vigor....what do we call all the crossbred dogs who get culled for not living up to the breeders who expected the whole litter to have "hybred Vigor"? I mean...for every example of hybred vigor like Little Red....there are hundreds....maybe thousands of crossbreeds that display no such hybred vigor....or even above average abilities. So what do we call it when the same thing happens in a purebred strain of dogs when they produce a dog like Mr. Clean...or Moonlight Kate.....or Mojo... all of whom were some of the biggest winners of their breed? It can't be hybred vigor..... so what is it? I have always called these dogs freaks. Now I don't mean that in a bad way...I just mean that they only pop up every few years between thousands and thousands of other pups produced....these dogs just pop up without warning like a freak accident. You didn't expect them....and you cannot reliably reproduce more of them. So thats what I mean by freak. These type of dogs are not just top level dogs...they are the best of the best...probably less than 1% of all dogs produced year over year. We know they happen and we know they happen in every breed...even crossbreeds occasionally.... so why do we call it something different when its a crossbreed? Maybe it is not at all "the result" of a crossbreed...but the result of the same thing that causes it to happen more often than not in the breeding of two purebred dogs. Think about it......

heterosis-

"also called hybrid vigour, the increase in such characteristics as size, growth rate, fertility, and yield of a hybrid organism over those of its parents. Plant and animal breeders exploit heterosis by mating two different pure-bred lines that have certain desirable traits. The first-generation offspring generally show, in greater measure, the desired characteristics of both parents."

THERE IS TO MUCH READING ON THIS SUBJECT AND IT IS VERY CONTROVERSAL SO IM DONE EVERYONE CAN TYPE IT IN AND READ AND DRAW THERE OWN CONCLUSION.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-22-2013 05:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by oklared
heterosis-

"also called hybrid vigour, the increase in such characteristics as size, growth rate, fertility, and yield of a hybrid organism over those of its parents. Plant and animal breeders exploit heterosis by mating two different pure-bred lines that have certain desirable traits. The first-generation offspring generally show, in greater measure, the desired characteristics of both parents."

THERE IS TO MUCH READING ON THIS SUBJECT AND IT IS VERY CONTROVERSAL SO IM DONE EVERYONE CAN TYPE IT IN AND READ AND DRAW THERE OWN CONCLUSION.

Increase in such characteristics as Size, growth rate, and fertility.....
Somehow, I just don't think these are the results that guys who want to crossbreed are envisioning. I think they are under the impression that they are going to get pups with more ability than either parent when they quote the term "hybred vigor"
I am pretty sure LIttle Red and other crossbreeds I have seen were about the average size for a hound. And although Red was never bred, of the other crossbreeds I know of that were...I can't think of a single one who was rumored to have grown up or matured faster than normal...or had an excessively large litter from increased fertility from hybred vigor....
Maybe hybred vigor has not been achieved in coonhound crossbreeds yet???
Or maybe I am not understanding the full scope of hybred vigor from the definition above?

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