UKC Forums - info on cyprees break setum up ace

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-- info on cyprees break setum up ace (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928309164)

Posted by d kennedy on 03-19-2013 12:27 PM:

info on cyprees break setum up ace

ive got a male double bred dont no much about the black and tan bred any info will be greatly apprecated

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Posted by thedirtyrat on 03-19-2013 03:54 PM:

Call Eddie Muse in Greenwood Mississippi. He owned him. He sired over 1500 pups. I think he was off Riley Laffoon's Super Sting. Eddie can tell you everything you need to know on Ace. Maybe someone has his number on this board. I would have to look it up.

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Posted by michael.magorian on 03-19-2013 04:49 PM:

He was out of Super Sting x Sugar Cookie, and is the #1 historic reproducer for the breed. Don't know anything about his hunting style.

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Posted by cody jaster on 03-19-2013 07:14 PM:

Had several out of him! Didn't like any of them. Ugly headed, skinny dogs that ran more junk than they ever did coon. Good deer dogs, they could lead any deer hound pack. Good luck with him...buy yourself a good shocking collar or two cause you will wear the first one completely out on it.

Posted by d kennedy on 03-19-2013 10:29 PM:

skinny and slim body for sure havent seen him run any junk so far im a walker man myself didnt no much about the breed thanks for all the imput

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Posted by shawnstovall on 03-20-2013 12:45 AM:

not where like that i have had the pleasure of hunting with or owned some out of ace the ones i owned had big blocky heads and built good and the same with the ones i hunted with no trash problems either.

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Posted by RRILEY on 03-20-2013 01:06 AM:

Can't say that I have ever heard of anyone continue to give a stud a try after owning " several " dogs as sorry as described. Makes you wonder as I think most everyone wouldve moved on after one or two. I hunted with a few off ace back in the 90's, I don't remember any being exceptional but I also know that you don't get to be the #1 reproducer in the breed if your not throwing really nice dogs. Ace bred an awful lot of females, why would people keep coming back to breed to him if they didn't like what they seen from his pups.
I can also tell you that while I don't know anything about his hunting style I do know that he was a silver ch in the other registry and you have to be doing something right in the timber to win more than 4 thousand dollars. Especially back in the early 90's.

Posted by d kennedy on 03-20-2013 01:28 AM:

1 drop the past 2 nights 1 den and 1 coon not to bad for not being hunted in a year or so i think i can feed him a while!thanks for the info guys!

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Posted by cody jaster on 03-20-2013 04:38 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by RRILEY
Can't say that I have ever heard of anyone continue to give a stud a try after owning " several " dogs as sorry as described. Makes you wonder as I think most everyone wouldve moved on after one or two. I hunted with a few off ace back in the 90's, I don't remember any being exceptional but I also know that you don't get to be the #1 reproducer in the breed if your not throwing really nice dogs. Ace bred an awful lot of females, why would people keep coming back to breed to him if they didn't like what they seen from his pups.
I can also tell you that while I don't know anything about his hunting style I do know that he was a silver ch in the other registry and you have to be doing something right in the timber to win more than 4 thousand dollars. Especially back in the early 90's.

If you're referring to me... I had several out of diff females then I did not give him another try. The only reason I tried several was because he was a number one reproducer. Although thats not saying much for the B&t breed. Look what's out there now!!! Not much! I had much better luck with Smithurst and black land Ernie dogs. By the way I didn't like much out of Houses Lipper either and look what he reproduced. Cornerstone of the walker breed today!

Posted by Paul Frederick on 03-20-2013 01:39 PM:

Female I've got now shows Ace 3 times in 4 generations and it would take a truckload of money to buy her. She has a huge male dog mouth, hard tree dog, and I never had to break her off anything. She's 5 and she's never ran anything off and she's only been under a opossum twice in her life and both times she was backing another dog. She shouldn't have done that, but she did.

Does she have flaws? You bet she does. She's not as cold-nosed as I would like; if a dog tries to run her off she'll stand up for herself a little too much (I would rather they back off and give the dog some room). Also right before she comes in heat she looks like an idiot and right after she's been put up a while she gets big ear syndrome.

Points I like about her: first strike dog (and not overly mouthy on the ground); takes a bulldozer to pull her off a tree; hard tree dog; accurate; good to hunt pups with; good with my kids (she loves to be loved on and petted); quite in the kennel (until it gets dark, you better be feeding her or taking her hunting at dark); easy to handle; I like her size (40 pounds, she's little but I like a little female).

She's out of my dad's NITECH GRCH Hutson's Black Ace dog and my brother raised her from a pup. He sold her once and we got her back and I bought her and she'll never leave us again. I co-own her with another guy in IL and he's going to try to finish her (never been put in many hunts before I got her) and then we are planning on raising some pups out of her.

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Posted by Paul Frederick on 03-20-2013 01:46 PM:

Here's a video of Betty treed this past summer. It's not the greatest (taken with a iPhone) and it was about 100 degrees out that night so she's not treeing as hard as she usually does. This was about 80 yards from the truck with the coon seen. If you listen real hard you can hear a walker dog way in the background that was in the box (we were cutting them separate).

http://s1300.photobucket.com/user/P...6e1561.mp4.html

Betty also has a litter-mate sister who is a Grand Nite Champion in New Hampshire that just raised a litter out of Hurricane Creek Uglystick.

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Posted by michael.magorian on 03-20-2013 02:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by cody jaster
If you're referring to me... I had several out of diff females then I did not give him another try. The only reason I tried several was because he was a number one reproducer. Although thats not saying much for the B&t breed. Look what's out there now!!! Not much! I had much better luck with Smithurst and black land Ernie dogs. By the way I didn't like much out of Houses Lipper either and look what he reproduced. Cornerstone of the walker breed today!

Read some of Mr. Jaster's other posts before you take anything he says to heart about old Ace.

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Posted by cody jaster on 03-20-2013 05:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by michael.magorian
Read some of Mr. Jaster's other posts before you take anything he says to heart about old Ace.

I do like to pull a few legs on here now and again but in this case I'm serious. I hunted black dogs in the 90's and had some good ones. Set'em up Ace pups weren't them. I can't speak for Ace but for what I observed in his pups. Ace hadn't been dead too many years. If his pups were so great then where are they now? Whose hunting grand pups out of him? At what level are they competing and winning? For that matter the B&t breed as a whole. There are Only a hand full of B&t breeders or dogs that can compete at anything except a bench show. I didn't leave the B&t breed, it left me. Good luck on your Ace dog. As for thoughs who don't like what I post...don't read them.

Posted by Paul Frederick on 03-20-2013 06:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by cody jaster
I do like to pull a few legs on here now and again but in this case I'm serious. I hunted black dogs in the 90's and had some good ones. Set'em up Ace pups weren't them. I can't speak for Ace but for what I observed in his pups. Ace hadn't been dead too many years. If his pups were so great then where are they now? Whose hunting grand pups out of him? At what level are they competing and winning? For that matter the B&t breed as a whole. There are Only a hand full of B&t breeders or dogs that can compete at anything except a bench show. I didn't leave the B&t breed, it left me. Good luck on your Ace dog. As for thoughs who don't like what I post...don't read them.

The Bad to the Bones Black Hawk dog that won the 2013 Winter Classic (and I believe finished 5th in the World a couple years ago) is a grandson of Ace on the bottom side and Hall's Southern Gauge on the top (which is a full brother to Ace but younger).

Bad to the Bones Cane (which threw a lot of good dogs) is a grand pup of Ace, too. On the Current reproducers list, Ace has one daughter in the top ten now and two in the historical. He is also the top historical B&T stud. I could name more that are on the reproducers that are grand or great grand pups of his.

Ace was born in 1991. I don't know when he passed away but his last litter of natural pups was in 02. He's got 4 litters that have been bred through stored semen since then. A friend of mine just had his Grand Nite female directly off Ace pass away from old age.

Ace sired 1437 pups of which 45 made Grand Nite and 81 made Nite Champion. And he's still got young pups on the ground that either haven't been hunted in competition or are too young for competition so some of them could title yet. You may not like him but there are a whole bunch of Black and Tan fanciers that do.

You may not like the pups you got but you can't discredit Ace and his impact on the B&T breed. The April issue of the Coonhound Bloodlines is the B&T issue. Flip through it and see how many advertised studs have Ace in them. There are good number of Ace bred B&T's still getting it done right and throwing nice pups.

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Posted by cody jaster on 03-20-2013 06:37 PM:

I see what you are saying and don't discredit that at all. I'm fully aware of the accomplishments of him (ace) and his pups. Just saying I had bad luck. I hunted black dogs for about 12-13 years exclusively. Made several Gr Nite and one a PKC gold ch. not to say Ace dogs couldn't tree coon, they did, the ones I saw had BIGGER problems than I cared to deal with. In the 70's B&ts were a great force. 80's they fell off a bit. 90's went down considerably and now they've all but killed over. I'm afraid it something doesn't change with that breed, along with a few others, they will go by the way of the Cocker Spainel as a hunting dog. Sad really. You few that still hunt'em need to hold on to the good ones and breed'em back into the gene pool or you will be hunting walkers before long and talking about the good ole days of hunting those Black dogs.

Posted by Paul Frederick on 03-20-2013 06:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by cody jaster
I see what you are saying and don't discredit that at all. I'm fully aware of the accomplishments of him (ace) and his pups. Just saying I had bad luck.

OK, it just didn't sound like it when you said:

quote:
Originally posted by cody jaster
Had several out of him! Didn't like any of them. Ugly headed, skinny dogs that ran more junk than they ever did coon. Good deer dogs, they could lead any deer hound pack. Good luck with him...buy yourself a good shocking collar or two cause you will wear the first one completely out on it.

We can disagree about the direction the B&T breed is going in today. I don't even consider myself a Black and Tan man but I've got a real nice one and I think there are some good studs out there today and some nice crosses being made. Just look at the KY River Batman dog (grandson of Gauge, full brother to Ace) that is throwing some nice pups. I know because I've seen some of them. Batman is just 4 so his pups are relatively young but he already has 2 Grand Nites on the ground.

Just for fun I took a quick glance at the Current Top Ten Reproducers list in the March issue of Coonhound Bloodlines. Out of the Top Ten males listed, 3 are grandsons of Ace. One is a great-grandson (and his mother is a half sister to Ace). Out of the ten females one is directly off Ace; one is a grand pup of Ace on her mothers side and great-grand on father's; 3 more are great-grands of Ace.

Like I said, it's just my opinion but I like the Ace bred dogs. Everyone is entitled to what they believe though. I'm 100% sure he threw some cull pups. That's the nature of having pups, not all of them turn out. It's just not be my experience at all.

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Posted by cody jaster on 03-20-2013 07:19 PM:

I can't argue with that...sounds like come back to me and I hope so. I used to feel mighty alone at the hunts showing up with the Only B&t entered in a hunt with 100+ dogs in it. I'm kinda beginning to feel that way again with entering my Bluetick. There's issues with that breed too but well save it for another post.

Posted by roughcreek on 03-20-2013 08:02 PM:

setum up ace made rough creek b&t's

ntch.rough creek easy ace was direct off ace.
12% reproducer & #1 performance sire 2007

ntchgrch.rough creek easys ragin cole off easy ace & 1/2 sister to ace. 11% reproducer current # 1 reproducers list was # 5 performance sire last year.

grntch.triple creek lock current #4 reproducers list & #2 performance sire 2012. off of grntch.rough creek black pepper was out of ace & grand dam ntch.rough creek black satin. litter mate to cole.

grntchgrch.puke box annie current # 3 on reproducers list & #2 performance dam 2012. off grntchgrch.rough creek little ann off easy ace out of setum up ace.

ntchch.rough creek smokin spazz was # 1 reproducers list & was in top 5 performance dam i cant remember what year. she was off spanglers setum up molly out of ace reproducers list.

grntchgrch.hurrikane creek uglystick just got his 100 pups & will be on reproducers list next month at 9.35% & #5 performance sire 2012.

pr.rough creek midnight ragin 1/2 sister to ace was 25% reproducer.

SETUM UP ACE HAS BEEN EXTREAMLY GOOD TO ME LINE BREEDING OFF HIM !!! i started line breeding off setum up ace in 1998.

3 of the top 10 current males & females on b&t reproducers list are rough creek bred dogs & uglystick will be there next month. line bred off setum up ace.

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Posted by Paul Frederick on 03-20-2013 08:12 PM:

Jim,

The video I posted is a litter mate sister to GRNITECH Rock Acres Setum Up Grace, the female from New Hampshire Bob Bonneau owns that he bred to Uglystick not long ago. I talked to Bob a couple weeks ago and he is in love with those pups. They are going to be barn-burners!

I'm with you, I like the Ace bred dogs.

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Posted by roughcreek on 03-20-2013 08:50 PM:

paul

your female definetly tree's setum up ace style. belly up !!
i talked to bob the other day. he said his pups got out one night. he woke up about 2:30 herd dogs barking said barking wasnt coming from his pen. he went back to sleep got up to go to work at 4:30 & realized it was his pups tree'd his neibors cat & still treeing. at 4 months old.

ol grace had me worried when i had her here to breed for bob. ugly is a very agressive breeder but he would not try to breed her at all till the 17 & 19th day when i got her bred. all i could think of was they brought her all the way from new hampsher & i wasnt gona get her bred. i bout dun a dance when they finly got hooked up !! 11 pups.

Posted by perry co cooner on 03-21-2013 12:14 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by michael.magorian
Read some of Mr. Jaster's other posts before you take anything he says to heart about old Ace.

X's 2!!!

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Posted by mike fleming on 03-21-2013 09:32 PM:

The pups and Grand pups that I hunted with were pretty good about treeing coons but were a little rough on the wood.

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