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-- puzzled about cross breeds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928308691)

puzzled about cross breeds

i can not figure out why folks are hunting black dogs and crossing them to walkers.
if you guys dont think a black dog can compete with a walker.why the hell are you hunting a black dog?
you are not going to make a name for yourself in the B&T breed by cross breeding.this was done before most of us came along.it does not improve our breed.imo
we have every thing we need already.we got drive accuracy and above all black dogs got plenty of smarts.you fellows need to look around a little more and quit me tooing your buddies.
it might just be your training program.if your a half ass trainer and want a good dog.hire a trainer.

Hardrock will forevermore smash the argument that crossing to Walkers won't make winners ... don't matter what anyone thinks or if he improves the breed ... you can't argue with what he's done or folks that want to try it themselves.

Experimenting is how all breeds improve , but crossing or tight breeding are both better suited for big ranches that can do it on a large enough scale to find the needle in the haystack.

Alot of arguments start and rage on for years because both parties are right and sharing real experience ... but it doesn't get matched up and put into context.

If you are a small kennel that hunts and sell extras ... not every method of breeding will give you the best odds of success .

A stud owner can afford to breed to every line and every breed out there if folks want .. and buy back top young dogs from the entire crop to use for himself ... for those guys , the shotgun breeding works because they have selection and maybe stud fee money saved up to afford it .

Ever way dogs can be bred has produced good dogs and spun off lines and breeds .... just find the one that works best for you .

Mike,
You make some good points. I don't know if you are aware that Pkc has a crossbred program that guys from all the breeds are getting involved in. Last year the crossbred dogs were second in money earned for the year, I don't think this is coincidental.

Do you own any other dog besides a Black and Tan? House pet, rabbit dog, coyote dog, squirrel dog etc? Just curious.

I can't speak for anyone else but last time I checked we still had the freedom to chose the color and breed of the dogs we own for pets as well as the hunting dogs we own.

The question I have for you Mike is what are you so afraid of that you don't want guys participating in the Pkc crossbred program?

I don't see the walker guys upset that bluetick, English, redbone, and black and tans are being bred to their breed. Maybe that is a clue of your fears.

Time will tell if the Pkc crossbreds can compete consistently at the national level but based on the Pkc standings the past 2 years they are already in second position and growing stronger.

This response is not intended to start a argument but rather a clarification of why crossbreds are gaining popularity amongst Pkc hunters.

Mike isn't referring to pkc and their crossbred program what he's talking about is ukc registering crossbreeds as purebreds. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong by breeding what they want or like but it shouldn't be labeled as something its not.

__________________
Home of :
Nitech Head's River Hatchet(Deceased)
Shake 'Em Up Little Rock Star (Ntch Beaver Creek Hoss X Iron's Fat Black Annie) Deceased
Shake 'Em Up Cola(GrNtCh. Pa. Sniper X Shake 'Em Up Little Rock Star) 2013 Cast Winner at SETWD Deceased


Forrest Strickland
(910)271-5987

quote:

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Originally posted by forreststrickla
Mike isn't referring to pkc and their crossbred program what he's talking about is ukc registering crossbreeds as purebreds. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong by breeding what they want or like but it shouldn't be labeled as something its not.

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__________________

CB&L KENNELS
HOME OF TREETALKIN
BLACK & TANS
CORKY CROWDER
BRANDON MAYO
LINDA CROWDER
PR TREETALKIN LITTLE SASSY
TREETALKIN TROOPERS BLEW
TREETALKIN RANGER DANGER
TREETALKIN LIL SHOOTEM UP JAKE
GRCHPR TREETALKIN NIGHTHAWK GONE BUT NEVER WILL BE FORGOTTEN R.I.P.

Mike

I believe your right that most of this was done before we all started, seemed like in the 80's I seen it first hand a bunch, it was common practice to patch papers where I came from, But, I do not agree with you when you say that it does not improve the breed, and I only say that, not because I am an avid crossbreeder, because I'm not, but, because with my experience in the dogs that I've owned, the ones with the large white stripe on their chests and the monkey faced ones, have been the better ones. All these dogs had Legit Black and Tan pedigrees on paper, but, a fellar would have to be extremely naive to think that these are pure bred Black and Tan traits. Most black and tan dogs that I grew up with were no huntin', long eared, big bawl mouthed, cold nosed, medium tree dogs. Great for pleasure hunting. In recent years (last 20) you see alot more chop on track, weaker mouthed black dogs out there, but most of these dogs are coon treeing machines. For me, I want the hard hunting, big mouthed, stay til you get there, no chewing( Black and Tan ) tree dog.I guess what I'm saying is that if I don't know about it, I guess I don't care, all this is just my opinion, and you bring up a great point. I just want the best, like you.

you guys need to look inside the breed.we have all the drive independance tree power and anything else you could look for.
just get out and go hunting with folks you dont know and check other dogs out.you will find what your looking for without having to go outside the breed.

i have nothing against crossbreeds or any other breed of dog out there.i dont care what another fellow hunts.what i do care about is keeping the B&T as pure as possible and i dont see going backwards to do it.

yes i am afraid of the crossbreed program.one day my pure black and tan could turn out to have pink eyes a bottle nose and purple spots all over him.lol

UKC doesn't have anything to do with single registration , that's the breed clubs ... never understand how so many folks try to slide UKC under the bus on breed standard issues.

I don't doubt there are purebred B&T's with any style you want , but give credit where it's due ... alot of the high powered studs were crossbreds and you will never convince folks that want another Hardrock or any other shaggy haired , dewclaw , monkey face having big named stud .. that they don't have the right to pursue it.

Mike,
Could you post here or pm me a list of the dogs with the 3 traits you mentioned drive, independence, tree power all wrapped up in one dog. I want to personally go and see these dogs. Thank you for your help I greatly appreciate it.

You can blame the UKC crossbreds being registered on the B&T Assc. If you don't like crossbreds being registered clean house and vote in new officers that will enforce the B&T Breed Standards. As of now they aren't worth the paper they are written on...

Didn't UKC create the new Breed Leopard Hound for a place to put those crossbreeds??

__________________
Windfall Black & Tans
Over 30 years raising Black & Tans
David Nicholas
Cell Ph: 716-258-0012
Home of:
NTCH PR Petrus Windall Bawls Deep Axle has 4 wins to GRNTCH
NTCH PR Windfall's Coon Zapper had 4 wins to GRCH(out of GRNTCH Nelson's Northern Rex)
GRNTCGRCH "PR"Windfall's Hardriding Hobie (GRNTCH "PR" Dark Hollow Hobo's Hoss x GRNTCH Halloway's TN Lady)-recently deceased 6-15-2011
GRNTCH "PR" Windfall's Ratface Ghost HTX (GRNTCH Bauer's KS Jr x GRNTCH Masten's Knockem Out Jill), recently deceased summer 2011
NTCH "PR" Windfall's Wreckin Bawl Boomer (Direct Out of GRNTCH Cypress Creek Setum Up Ace and a Fiddler gyp)
GRCH "PR" Windfall's Miracle Macey (1st & 2nd UKC Win) (GRNTCHGRCH Windfall's Hardriding Hobie x PR Windfall's Sadie) recently deceased 2011
Sold ownership of CH GRNTCH PR LV's Windfall Hi Dollar Tango- now deceased Dec 2012

Amish Mafia
do you want a list of males or females.

Mike,

Both.... And names of the owners. Thank you much

I know you ask Mike this but I have a 23 month old female here that has indepenence drive ability and a 140-150 bpm stay put treedog. I will gladly show you

__________________
Home of :
Nitech Head's River Hatchet(Deceased)
Shake 'Em Up Little Rock Star (Ntch Beaver Creek Hoss X Iron's Fat Black Annie) Deceased
Shake 'Em Up Cola(GrNtCh. Pa. Sniper X Shake 'Em Up Little Rock Star) 2013 Cast Winner at SETWD Deceased


Forrest Strickland
(910)271-5987

quote:

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Originally posted by Amish Mafia
Mike,

Both.... And names of the owners. Thank you much

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__________________
Young Gunz
_Black & Tans__

NITECH'PR' YOUNG GUNZ NORTHERN MAY
(Northern Cash X Echo)

GRNITECH'PR' YOUNG GUNZ DAISY
(Crockett's Blk Nute X Bauer's Kansas Stender)


Chris Mowen (937-554-8547)

Ch Nitech Ingram's Smoking Tony aka SMOKE
pr' Blk Smokin Harry Bawlz
pr' Ingram's Drifter
pr' Hall's Bodidley
pr' Hall's TT

Ch Grnitech Moore's Alabama Black Buster
Dual Gr Gardner's Black Clyde
Ch Nitech Moore's Cecil

Nitech Cherry Poppins
her pups: Boots, Booger, Possum, & Gal

How many more you want?

__________________
-Big T Kennels-
Home of:

NtCh ch'pr'Ingram's Smokin' Tony "Smoke" (3 wins toward Grand)(Kansas Junior x Stender's Hawkeye Rose)
'pr' Stone Cold Drifter (Smoke x Ragin Black Little Bit)



James Trott - (256)404-7771

Cross breed all you want, just don't register them as black & tans. Also exactly how many Grand Night Champions did the great and powerful Hardrock produce if he was indeeed the savior of the Black & tan breed as everyone that backs cross breeds thinks he was?

I personally dont see the big deal with cross breeding with all the genetic conditions coming up in all breeds such as thyroid problems fertility problems and such fresh new genetics (HYBRID VIGOR) is a great idea it doesnt mean u have to breed to them or like it. There are several lines of black dogs from the past that still today are producing longer or rough hair rear dew claws yellow eyed and flag tailed. Even the breeders from the past crossed outside the breed. If this is about looking like you need help from the walker breed. I se absolutely no probleem with registering them as long as it is known instead of registered as purebred like they were in the past. It really doesnt matter what anyone thinks as long as ukc thinks they are missing out on their slice of the pie and letting pkc have it

quote:

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Originally posted by J I Allen
Cross breed all you want, just don't register them as black & tans. Also exactly how many Grand Night Champions did the great and powerful Hardrock produce if he was indeeed the savior of the Black & tan breed as everyone that backs cross breeds thinks he was?

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__________________
pkc ch,acha grnitech,grnitech'pr'c an n's where's wally !!!2010 was a good year for c&n kennel !!!! 'pr'nitech sweet little fatty

quote:

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Originally posted by Amish Mafia
Mike,
Could you post here or pm me a list of the dogs with the 3 traits you mentioned drive, independence, tree power all wrapped up in one dog. I want to personally go and see these dogs. Thank you for your help I greatly appreciate it.

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__________________
pkc ch,acha grnitech,grnitech'pr'c an n's where's wally !!!2010 was a good year for c&n kennel !!!! 'pr'nitech sweet little fatty

I do not have any problems with cross breeding hounds to get the style of dog that pleases you. But if you choose to go that route u should register them as a cross bred hound instead of Walker b&t blue tick and so on. That's just my opinion.

I agree with you Shaun,ive always said if UKC had a crossbreed registry.The prob would be solved.The problem is a crossbred hound is not allowed to hunt in UKC events.Therefore they are registered as a purebred hound.We need another door opened.JMO.

__________________
Twix
Gr Nt CH TREE SLAMMIN HAMMER

2011 RQE NEWPORT,TN 5 TH PLACE
2011 WORLD Qualifier
2011 BnT Days Cast Winner
2012 Cast Winner TN State
2012 3 rd Place Grnt,s BNT days
2012 World Qualifier Meigs Cnty RQE 4 rth place
2012 zones Virginia 4rth place
2012 TOP 100 WORLD HUNT
2013 4th high scoring dog fri night,TN State
2014 World Qualifier

Nt Ch Hammers Black Bear
2014 World Qualifier

Nt Ch Hammers Bigtime Drama
2014 World Qualifier

Where would I go to find purebred B&T's that don't have any other breeds in them ?

quote:

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Originally posted by Dirtdevil
Where would I go to find purebred B&T's that don't have any other breeds in them ?

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__________________
Home of :
Nitech Head's River Hatchet(Deceased)
Shake 'Em Up Little Rock Star (Ntch Beaver Creek Hoss X Iron's Fat Black Annie) Deceased
Shake 'Em Up Cola(GrNtCh. Pa. Sniper X Shake 'Em Up Little Rock Star) 2013 Cast Winner at SETWD Deceased


Forrest Strickland
(910)271-5987

My house Justin,i have the purist of the pure. As long as you dont mind a possible dew claw on a pup here and there.lmbo!!!!

__________________
Twix
Gr Nt CH TREE SLAMMIN HAMMER

2011 RQE NEWPORT,TN 5 TH PLACE
2011 WORLD Qualifier
2011 BnT Days Cast Winner
2012 Cast Winner TN State
2012 3 rd Place Grnt,s BNT days
2012 World Qualifier Meigs Cnty RQE 4 rth place
2012 zones Virginia 4rth place
2012 TOP 100 WORLD HUNT
2013 4th high scoring dog fri night,TN State
2014 World Qualifier

Nt Ch Hammers Black Bear
2014 World Qualifier

Nt Ch Hammers Bigtime Drama
2014 World Qualifier