UKC Forums - how would you judge this!

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Posted by Richards123 on 03-16-2013 07:12 PM:

how would you judge this!

At ashland friday night

Cast heads to woods, we turn loose, dogs are tracking one by one the dogs start treeing together, as were walking to tree the judge says those two blue females are scratched. The rest of the cast looks at eachother and says what for. The judge replies for fighting, he says they were showing teeth, we argue then he says they were balled up. Keep in mind we all walked to the tree together and he is the only one who saw the dogs fight. We shine the tree, they were on a small tree tied into a den, we circle it.

We head back to the club to question the scratch, Master of hounds says if the judge saw it then he saw it. He calls on two random people, for a panel of judges, and without even hearing the story, the other two so called judges says scratch em'. The other gentleman withdrew b/c he had no ride.

haha then one of those panel judges becomes the guide and judge for his buddy and they take off to finish the hunt alone, Talk about a buddy system!

So does this mean that if I am a judge in a cast and I am worried that two dogs might beat me, I could scratch them for fighting even tho no one else saw it, and go on to win the cast. OR DID WE JUST GET OUT SMARTED

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Posted by walkerdog1 on 03-16-2013 07:19 PM:

You got screwed

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Posted by GA DAWG on 03-16-2013 07:43 PM:

2 blue dogs? I can see where a fight did probably break out.

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Posted by JiM on 03-16-2013 08:08 PM:

You have to follow the process. You ask for a cast vote. If the cast doesn't vote to overrule the judge, the judges decision goes on the card. If the cast outvotes the judge, the card must reflect that. Anyone not satisfied with the outcome of the cast vote can question it to the MOH. If you don't agree with the MOH, you file a Formal Complaint.
If you don't follow this process, you settle for whatever you get stuck with no matter how unfair it is.

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Posted by josh on 03-16-2013 08:10 PM:

The call is simply based on the opinions of the 4 cast members.

If the judge scratched 2 dogs without seeing a fight, and the other 3 cast members disagreed....Generally, I would expect the judge to be overturned by the MOH.

But I wasnt there...

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Posted by john Duemmer on 03-16-2013 08:10 PM:

Did anyone request a cast vote after the judge said he was going to scratch the dogs?

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Posted by cranberry on 03-16-2013 08:17 PM:

I know if I'm judging that cast, and I'm the only one who sees it, were gonna watch the dogs tree together for a short period of time before we handle em. Because if they are truly aggressive, it will happen again for all the cast to see. With that being said, there are some light broke dogs out there that are hard to catch. But if those blue dogs were light broke, the judge wouldn't have seen it to start with. Sounds to me like you got cheated/screwed/etc.

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Posted by kenney Clark on 03-16-2013 09:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
You have to follow the process. You ask for a cast vote. If the cast doesn't vote to overrule the judge, the judges decision goes on the card. If the cast outvotes the judge, the card must reflect that. Anyone not satisfied with the outcome of the cast vote can question it to the MOH. If you don't agree with the MOH, you file a Formal Complaint.
If you don't follow this process, you settle for whatever you get stuck with no matter how unfair it is.

This is correct. If you dont follow this process, you wont be heard, and the decisdion will not be overturned no matter how bad you just got screwed. If the process was done correctly this may have been overturned. but sounds like you got a Guy that simply wanted to hunt by themselves. And the club backed him, but if voting process was followed then this should be overturned. If not file the formal complaint on them. Add all names involved on the report. This may change there buddy system. I had this happen to me before and it was wrong, but I did not follow there Question procedure. and they get you every time. so follow the procedure then watch all the finger pointing. They tell you question it at the Tree, not at the truck. but they Sratch you at the truck . lol. So dont get upset and play there game. just formal complait it.

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Posted by Richards123 on 03-16-2013 09:37 PM:

yes we did a cast vote it was three to one, judge still wanted to go to club to turn it into MOH. MOH said a vote did not matter in this situation

We did not file a formal complaint neither of our dogs have ever had a scratch against them.

Just seeing how other people viewed this and how to stop this from happening.

I guess i need to read up on my rules again lol

Posted by JiM on 03-16-2013 10:19 PM:

Well, consider this. You are the MOH. You're faced with a 3-1 vote against the judges decision on a judgement call. Three castmembers say there was no fight, the judge says there was. You as MOH, you decide to back your judge. One of the guys that got scratched says "fine, give me a Formal Complaint form and you can explain your reason for going against a 3 person majority to the fellas up at Kalamazoo" because EVERY Formal Complaint goes to and is ultimately settled by UKC.
Now our MOH knows he is gonna have to explain to UKC why he went with a judge against 3 castmembers and if he is very confident in reputation of his judge, he will gladly make that explanation. On the other hand, if he is working the buddy system with his judge, he will most likely pitch a crybaby fit and ultimately, send the whole cast back out to finish the hunt.

Posted by Richards123 on 03-16-2013 10:43 PM:

we probably should of fought harder for it but before we were even finished talking about it, the cast judge was walking out the door with his new guide and judge

Posted by kenney Clark on 03-17-2013 05:11 PM:

I bet he was So proud of that win !!!!

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Posted by john Duemmer on 03-17-2013 05:28 PM:

I dont understand why the cast returned to the clubhouse.. At the point where a cast vote was requested and the judges call to scratch was overturned by a 3 to 1 vote the hunt should have continued.

Unless someone can show me where a hunting judges decision cant be reversed by a cast vote they no longer have a scratch to deal with so no need to go back.

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Posted by tn backwoods on 03-17-2013 06:05 PM:

I bet he has bragged to all of his buddies about his win. Don't worry about it they were just afraid u had a dog to beat him . Just remember him the next time that u draw them pay back is a .....

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Posted by rscott on 03-17-2013 06:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Well, consider this. You are the MOH. You're faced with a 3-1 vote against the judges decision on a judgement call. Three castmembers say there was no fight, the judge says there was. You as MOH, you decide to back your judge. One of the guys that got scratched says "fine, give me a Formal Complaint form and you can explain your reason for going against a 3 person majority to the fellas up at Kalamazoo" because EVERY Formal Complaint goes to and is ultimately settled by UKC.
Now our MOH knows he is gonna have to explain to UKC why he went with a judge against 3 castmembers and if he is very confident in reputation of his judge, he will gladly make that explanation. On the other hand, if he is working the buddy system with his judge, he will most likely pitch a crybaby fit and ultimately, send the whole cast back out to finish the hunt.

Jim is correct on all quotes and yes you got screwed by judge and M.O.H

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Posted by Jack Bingham on 03-17-2013 07:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
I dont understand why the cast returned to the clubhouse.. At the point where a cast vote was requested and the judges call to scratch was overturned by a 3 to 1 vote the hunt should have continued.

Unless someone can show me where a hunting judges decision cant be reversed by a cast vote they no longer have a scratch to deal with so no need to go back.

Anytime you have a scratching offense and it's questioned you must return to Moh

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Posted by john Duemmer on 03-17-2013 07:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jack Bingham
Anytime you have a scratching offense and it's questioned you must return to Moh

Thats my point.. The judges ruling didnt need to be questioned on the card he was overturned by the cast vote so at that point there is no ? on the card, and no reason to return.
The only question woud be if the judge then questioned weather or not he could be overturned.

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Posted by jarett davis on 03-17-2013 08:17 PM:

The master of hounds probably had a dog in the cast.

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Posted by Jack Bingham on 03-18-2013 12:18 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Thats my point.. The judges ruling didnt need to be questioned on the card he was overturned by the cast vote so at that point there is no ? on the card, and no reason to return.
The only question woud be if the judge then questioned weather or not he could be overturned.

Wrong don't matter the vote any handler can put a question on the card if he don't agree with the vote. In this case they had to go back to MOH because it's a scratching offense

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