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how would you judge this!

At ashland friday night

Cast heads to woods, we turn loose, dogs are tracking one by one the dogs start treeing together, as were walking to tree the judge says those two blue females are scratched. The rest of the cast looks at eachother and says what for. The judge replies for fighting, he says they were showing teeth, we argue then he says they were balled up. Keep in mind we all walked to the tree together and he is the only one who saw the dogs fight. We shine the tree, they were on a small tree tied into a den, we circle it.

We head back to the club to question the scratch, Master of hounds says if the judge saw it then he saw it. He calls on two random people, for a panel of judges, and without even hearing the story, the other two so called judges says scratch em'. The other gentleman withdrew b/c he had no ride.

haha then one of those panel judges becomes the guide and judge for his buddy and they take off to finish the hunt alone, Talk about a buddy system!


So does this mean that if I am a judge in a cast and I am worried that two dogs might beat me, I could scratch them for fighting even tho no one else saw it, and go on to win the cast. OR DID WE JUST GET OUT SMARTED

__________________
Nitech pkc ch AR'S Big timber cutter
Pkc ch star struck
Nitech pr' Richards blue bawlin sue

11th bluetick days 2011
1st mike coulter memorial hunt 2011
1st convoy, OH 950+,2012
2nd mike coulter memorial 2013 300+
1st nitech hoosier state hunt 2013 400+
Hight scoring female hoosier state hunt 2013

Nitech triple max
Nitech jane
Nitech tatr
Pr Richards boomer
Pr neosho river chief
Nitech Ar's black River Bobbie

sounds purty fishy to me but them people have to live with and answer to the big one!!

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Re: how would you judge this!

quote:

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Originally posted by Richards123
At ashland friday night

Cast heads to woods, we turn loose, dogs are tracking one by one the dogs start treeing together, as were walking to tree the judge says those two blue females are scratched. The rest of the cast looks at eachother and says what for. The judge replies for fighting, he says they were showing teeth, we argue then he says they were balled up. Keep in mind we all walked to the tree together and he is the only one who saw the dogs fight. We shine the tree, they were on a small tree tied into a den, we circle it.

We head back to the club to question the scratch, Master of hounds says if the judge saw it then he saw it. He calls on two random people, for a panel of judges, and without even hearing the story, the other two so called judges says scratch em'. The other gentleman withdrew b/c he had no ride.

haha then one of those panel judges becomes the guide and judge for his buddy and they take off to finish the hunt alone, Talk about a buddy system!


So does this mean that if I am a judge in a cast and I am worried that two dogs might beat me, I could scratch them for fighting even tho no one else saw it, and go on to win the cast. OR DID WE JUST GET OUT SMARTED

---

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The vote was 3 - 1 judge still wanted to go to MOH
Did not stick around lol couldnt look at the people any longer

__________________
Nitech pkc ch AR'S Big timber cutter
Pkc ch star struck
Nitech pr' Richards blue bawlin sue

11th bluetick days 2011
1st mike coulter memorial hunt 2011
1st convoy, OH 950+,2012
2nd mike coulter memorial 2013 300+
1st nitech hoosier state hunt 2013 400+
Hight scoring female hoosier state hunt 2013

Nitech triple max
Nitech jane
Nitech tatr
Pr Richards boomer
Pr neosho river chief
Nitech Ar's black River Bobbie

Hunting judge has complete authority to scratch dogs he feels are fighting or interfering with other dogs by agressive behavior. At that point any cast member has the right to question the judges call and call for a cast vote. If the majority=3 other handlers in a 4 dog cast or 2 in a 3 dog cast vote no scratch then there is no scratch. If no majority against the judges decision then it holds. At least thats my understanding of the rules and proper procedure.

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Home of UKC GR NT CH, PKC CH
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and several other blueticks of lesser accomplishments

It sure seems like it should be that way

But the way it was put to me is that a scratchable offence can not be voted on

Is their any rules that stop a judge from scratching dogs just because he says dogs are fighting

__________________
Nitech pkc ch AR'S Big timber cutter
Pkc ch star struck
Nitech pr' Richards blue bawlin sue

11th bluetick days 2011
1st mike coulter memorial hunt 2011
1st convoy, OH 950+,2012
2nd mike coulter memorial 2013 300+
1st nitech hoosier state hunt 2013 400+
Hight scoring female hoosier state hunt 2013

Nitech triple max
Nitech jane
Nitech tatr
Pr Richards boomer
Pr neosho river chief
Nitech Ar's black River Bobbie

judges

That just shows you if you want to title a dog just be a hunting judge . That's why titles don't mean much anymore , master of hounds should have threw the cast out . cheaters may win but they don't prosper .

Myself being a master of hounds

I study the Advisor book, the official interpretation of the ukc nite hunt rules. page 59 and 60 charge,s the judge to hold his position on scratching dogs for fighting regardless if the cast feels they have a vote, and just for the record a judge does not have to see a dog fight to scratch dogs for fighting, example, as explained in the Advisor page 60, 3 dog cast, all three dogs tree, two dogs can be heard fighting, the third dog on is still treeing and is determined to be a particular dog and did not stop treeing during the fight, cast arrives at tree fight is over and all dogs are treeing again, since one dog was detemined to have never quiet treeing the other two dogs are to be scratched, if you can minus a dog for leaving a tree with out seeing him/her actually leave then you can scratch one for fighting with out seeing the actual fight, as long as the judge can determine which dogs are guilty.......Gerald

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The only cast vote is when it is in a scoring position plus, minus ,circle . Judge has full authority of the cast. He does not have to ask what you think or how it should be scored as he says what he is doing and if you disagree you ask for a vote if you still disagree he score it as he feels and you can ask moh in the question. If you still don't like the moh descion then ask for a panel if still not satisfied the put up you 25 and fill out a complain to send to ukc and it will be sent in with hunt report and they will call. In an hunt director format you put up 25 at the tree. Yes they could be scratched for that even if just showing teeth and growling. That's aggressive behavior and interference. BUT I myself would have given a warning unless they was balled up like Michael Vicks Hound dogs.

I would call it a lesson learned.I would go back to the club house and let them know about it.If they dont do anything about it I wouldnt go back.Ive never run into that kind of stuff.Ive seen some stuff I didnt agree with but nothing like that.It would have me a little upset and they would know it.

__________________
Brian Davis
Carrollton,Mo.64633
1(660)542-0932

quote:

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Originally posted by INSANE HARRY
The only cast vote is when it is in a scoring position plus, minus ,circle . Judge has full authority of the cast. He does not have to ask what you think or how it should be scored as he says what he is doing and if you disagree you ask for a vote if you still disagree he score it as he feels and you can ask moh in the question. If you still don't like the moh descion then ask for a panel if still not satisfied the put up you 25 and fill out a complain to send to ukc and it will be sent in with hunt report and they will call. In an hunt director format you put up 25 at the tree. Yes they could be scratched for that even if just showing teeth and growling. That's aggressive behavior and interference. BUT I myself would have given a warning unless they was balled up like Michael Vicks Hound dogs.

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Why do people always say they would give a warning? There are no "warnings", they growl or show there teeth they go home. More people would quick giving these "warnings" and there would be less of these fighting threads on here.

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Wesley DePalmo

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quote:

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Originally posted by rufus71
thats correct 100%

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Judges have told me they have to show aggression and interference to be scratched.I questioned it one night when a dog grabbed my female by the lip.He said he couldnt scratch the other dog because she kept treeing,no interference.I dont agree but that is the rules.

__________________
Brian Davis
Carrollton,Mo.64633
1(660)542-0932

Rules will be have different views by everyone. Aggressive behavior is, to show aggression. Does not mean they have to be fighting or they have to stop treeing. If your dog is treeing and mine bites him growls or any aggressive acts it can be scratched. Just because yours may not stop treeing doesnt mean mine isn't aggressive. Interference is anther act such as face barking tree jacking and falling all over other dogs causing disruption at the tree.
If I wasn't 100% right on the other post please let me know what was wrong cuz I'm alway up for learning new rules. Ukc can be a little fuzzy at times as I do most my handling in the PKC Pro rules. In pro ams and such they changed them around on me this past few months all in all we all feel shafted every now n then. 95% of the time its our wounded pride that hurts the most and we tend to wanna blame others.

Interference ??

If all dogs are still treeing and no one left the area, where is the interference?? I am not for fighting, mean dogs, but the rule states there also has to be interference, with what was posted,, I did not understand there to be any,

Yes Warnings are not a have to but I have seen dogs get grumpy at a tree once and never see it again so no scratch was needed. Dogs get worked up just like people do. Example your post about me saying warning got u fired up it's nature, but just plain out fighting at a tree is where I feel the no warning comes in to place. Look at your little blue book I'm sure it say under scratching offense some where in there what is scratchable in the behavior. Then read where it says judge has control of the cast and his call will be final. It's a judgement call and they will side with them 99% of the time. Sorry if it makes you mad but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

He posted that judge said he saw them balled up if he did or didn't that's all he need to state. What has me is it was voted on in the woods and a 3-1 in favor of no fight was seen. Only time a judges vote is final on a vote is in a tie and then you can still question it . With a 3-1 vote you should have had the guide take you to the next dump and if judge was refusing to cut loose the he needs to question the call and take it back. Then it's him having to proove it not you. Plain as day it says in a hunting judge cast majority rules. Just saying.
Keep in mind the judge can scratch any dogs for fighting and he don't have to let you vote on it......BUT......He opened the door by letting you vote. That was his mistake..

All a dog has to do is show aggressive behavior in presence of the judge, don't matter where or how. Your dog got bit his dog goes home !

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Wesley DePalmo

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quote:

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Originally posted by ysudep2
All a dog has to do is show aggressive behavior in presence of the judge, don't matter where or how. Your dog got bit his dog goes home !

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thanks for the input.

It was definately a screwy situation.

We voted on it but it didnt matter because it was a scratchable offence.


The thing that got me was that there was actually no fight lol.

Its to bad that there is no way of stopping something like this from happening, but i guess its just how things go sometimes.

I believe non-hunting judges would solve alot of issues

__________________
Nitech pkc ch AR'S Big timber cutter
Pkc ch star struck
Nitech pr' Richards blue bawlin sue

11th bluetick days 2011
1st mike coulter memorial hunt 2011
1st convoy, OH 950+,2012
2nd mike coulter memorial 2013 300+
1st nitech hoosier state hunt 2013 400+
Hight scoring female hoosier state hunt 2013

Nitech triple max
Nitech jane
Nitech tatr
Pr Richards boomer
Pr neosho river chief
Nitech Ar's black River Bobbie