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-- with the emphasis on early starting natural tree dogs (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928305721)

with the emphasis on early starting natural tree dogs

have we lost out some on the finished product?

do these early starting dogs with plenty of tree reach thier potential earlier yet dont get much better and lack a little in the finished product?

seems like at times its hard to fine a solid consistant night in night out dog in tough hunting conditions, and i just wonder if its because the ones that would end up like that are getting culled or never even given the chance because they are known to or turn out to be alittle slower starting and a little slower to tree.

certainly not making this as a statement of fact, just curious to hear others thoughts on it.

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the oldest ride in the park, but still the longest line.

i think its a combination of several things... one being low numbers in hunts and making grand with them before 2 years old and the dog never being hunted enough after that to reach its full potential.... another being as soon as the do get a few wins is people breeding them of which i dont object just think it keeps most from makeing top dogs... hunting those 6 month old pups in the ground will also have an effect on the finished product... perry ross hunted ole sally all the way thru from day one in my opinion thats what makes a winner.... it takes a dog hunted up and down in every situation to win consistantly against top dogs... just because they are good enough to win tonight does not mean you can lay them up and them be ready to win next month

Early starting can't be avoided if you keep breeding for something ... but it's also a fact that anything that matures physically fast , usually matures mentally fast too .... kinda like those boys in junior high with mustaches before the rest of us .. you see em' later in life and they come up to your shoulder , lol.

God make sure if we are gonna try our hand at creating something , it never stops being challenging .

I am not in favor of cold or late starting dogs ... but they don't hand out the medals at the starting line either.

Interesting

Very good post Rance.

Something along the same lines as your post, I think a lot of folks are way too quick to label a cross a success. Many times it is based on the majority of the pups being able to tree an easy coon at a young age. I guess everyone has their own definition of what success is, but I would tend to lean toward your mindset regarding the final product being more of a determining factor.

Steve makes a very good point as well, there is no better way to gain consistency than time in the woods. The othe side of the coin is you can pour countless hours of time into a hound, but if it is not the right hound, you will never end up with anything better than something that is on the upper end of common.

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Home of:
A couple blue haired potlickers

Gone but not forgotten:
Nt Ch Fanny's Midnite Blue Annie - aka Sodie Pop R.I.P. - I will miss you old girl

Nt Ch Becky’s Midnite Blue Hank - R.I.P. Old Boy, thank you for the memories

Gr Nt Ch S&E's Midnite Lite Blue Snow (Co-Owned with my good friend Harry Eidenier) - We had a blast following you ole girl!

Rance

As most on here know, I love to mess with young hounds and over the years have started plenty of them. Regardless of wether they start early or later as far as running and treeing there own coon there's one very important ingredient that must be taken into account and that is hunt time alone. One will never know what a hounds full potential is if it is never given the chance. As I look over this board and see the stud dogs being advertized for stud that I started and hunted here at the kennel at an early age if I should have given them more time to get older or were my thoughts of the hound right from the start. I'll never know I guess. What I like to see in a young hound maybe some would not like. What I don't like to see in a youngin often and it shows up to much at an early age never has a chance here even tho they can run and tree there own coon. If one gets my goat just a bit more than I can take, usually means someones going to get a pretty nice young hound if I do decide to sell it! Each to thier own I guess. I myself like a youngin running and treeing at a young age, does that make them super stars. I don't believe it does and if they leave here can they turn into one, they certainly can but I myself look for traits at a young age that I like and the youngin that shows me night in and night out what I'm looking for! Like a 20 minute or less to get treed type!! Give me one of them and that's the one I'll spend my time with. This time of year can be tough on a youngin here in ohio, this is the time I like to put them to the test. Snow, frosted up along with older smarter coons can make one or break one for me! Good post!! Danny G.

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Danny G

I would say no

I dont think that early starting equals less of a finished product.

My experience has been that the top notch early starters in a litter or cross just get better the older they get.....if they are pushed and hunted alot.

A lot of pups early or late starters don't get handled right and never reach their potential. I have had guys take a 2 or 3 year old dog that I had going great and give that hound any number of problems. In many cases I taught them(the new onwer) what they were doing wrong and in no time the "problem" their hound had is gone again.

If you could go back 50 years and see what the average dog was like back then, I think you would see that a lot more hounds will make top notch hounds now then back then.(we have improved)

My concern is that in many cases we may be losing some of the houndiness and cold nose that we had. Like many have said before hunt the dog alone alot and in the worst of weather....this will let you know what you have.

I have always been most impressed with a dogs ability(or pup) to run and tree coon that other dogs have no clue were there.

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Island City Blues

Count your blessings everyday!

Early starting is by WHAT age? I've really never had a early starting Bluetick. They generally start doing something cause a take them hunting at 6 months. They generally do something by 10 months to a year. By 18 months old they better be rolling or they are rolling to someone else's house. As for early starting...my experience with early starting pups is they fizzle out pretty early too! Some come back but most really don't please me and never make full potential.

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Originally posted by cody jaster
Early starting is by WHAT age? I've really never had a early starting Bluetick. They generally start doing something cause a take them hunting at 6 months. They generally do something by 10 months to a year. By 18 months old they better be rolling or they are rolling to someone else's house. As for early starting...my experience with early starting pups is they fizzle out pretty early too! Some come back but most really don't please me and never make full potential.

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Island City Blues

Count your blessings everyday!

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Originally posted by ICB
I think he was talking about early starting as in 8-16 week old puppies.

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Originally posted by cody jaster
Oh! Like some of the walker men claim. 17 - 18 week old Nite Champions...made a Gr at 6 months...that kind of early starting!!! I wouldn't know anything about that!

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Island City Blues

Count your blessings everyday!

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Originally posted by ICB
So are they really claiming that or are you joking?

There have been a lot of blue pups that have ran and treed their 1st coon in the wild(not a caged coon either) at 12 weeks to 20 weeks of age. I have seen several 16 week old pups run and tree coon that old dogs never even knew were there.

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maybe we would be better off focusing on those(easy) starters regardless if its track or tree they do 1st or best---the ones who get better and better progressing steadily are the ticket.


it shouldnt be overlooked that good breeders will also be top trainers--they will breed toward the style they prefer to work with..............a lot can be learned with a few thoughtful ?s

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Originally posted by willscreek1
maybe we would be better off focusing on those(easy) starters regardless if its track or tree they do 1st or best---the ones who get better and better progressing steadily are the ticket.


it shouldnt be overlooked that good breeders will also be top trainers--they will breed toward the style they prefer to work with..............a lot can be learned with a few thoughtful ?s

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quote:

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Originally posted by willscreek1
maybe we would be better off focusing on those(easy) starters regardless if its track or tree they do 1st or best---the ones who get better and better progressing steadily are the ticket.


it shouldnt be overlooked that good breeders will also be top trainers--they will breed toward the style they prefer to work with..............a lot can be learned with a few thoughtful ?s

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the oldest ride in the park, but still the longest line.

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Originally posted by patches9452
for the record i dont know about any of those eitheri have had 2 that treed easy coon a couple days before 6 months old... to me early starters are 6 to 10 month old

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Island City Blues

Count your blessings everyday!

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Originally posted by ICB
Have you ever seen Ed Meads training video? Usually by 4.5 to 5.5 months old a guy can tell which pups are gonna have both....lots of track and tree power. Start them running and treeing by scent at 8 to 12 weeks old(not by sight).

A 14 week old pup that can work a bad track a 1/2 mile and put a coon on the end that old dogs cant even smell is what I love to see in a pup. You dont want to over work a pup though... their bodies arent mature and developed.

get yourself a DVD...... Ed Mead 517-531-4975

I would have had about 10% of the success raising, starting, and training pups had I not tried to absorb everything Ed had to say about pups.

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Originally posted by patches9452
if my old dog cant tree or even smell a coon a 14 week old puppy treed i got more problems than to even need a pup

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I guess to relate back to the OP's topic....

There are a whole lot of famous/and non famous finished dogs out there that are top notch coon dogs that I know were "born" lock down pressure tree dogs at a very young. They didn't stay the same....they progressed as they got older.

I guess it is all about where you set your own standard. I never had the patience to hunt a pup or year old dog for 6 months and shoot a pile of coon out to it before it started to look good.

What would you rather buy a pup from...dogs that would run and tree on coon scent before they had ever seen a coon and looked like a polished hound at 14 months? Or, some dog that had been hunted for 3 or 4 years and had 500 coon shot out to it before it looked like a polished hound?

I guess maybe when I see someone with a line of dogs that dont start until they are 3 but they can consistently make all of the early starting lines out there look bad then maybe I will change my thinking.

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Island City Blues

Count your blessings everyday!

Any breed of dog that will bark At anything will track something to a tree and bark at it! Especially if you tease and shake it...this means nothing! Your training methods are way off and you must be listening to the wrong people on training pups. I Don't hunt my pups really until about 8 months old. With any dog. I hunt and train them by themself. I haven't owned an older cooner in years. Don't need one! Show that pup a caged coon...get him fired up. The next day let him see it run off out of sight...if he trees it fine if not fine. Start taking that pup hunting by himself to corn feeders and he will tree one. Don't even kill it. Do this a few times and u will see huge improvements. At 10 to 12 months hell be doing as good as a 3 year old that had had a ton of coon shot to it. I have a 2 1/2 old blue right now that has only had 3 coon shot out to him totally. He trees coon every time I hunt him and so have all the others I've trained. And by the way I've won a bunch of hunts too! If this don't help you then you are hunting the wrong Blue dogs. PM me and I'll try to help further! Who needs a pup trainer? You are it!!!

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Originally posted by cody jaster
Any breed of dog that will bark At anything will track something to a tree and bark at it! Especially if you tease and shake it...this means nothing! Your training methods are way off and you must be listening to the wrong people on training pups. I Don't hunt my pups really until about 8 months old. With any dog. I hunt and train them by themself. I haven't owned an older cooner in years. Don't need one! Show that pup a caged coon...get him fired up. The next day let him see it run off out of sight...if he trees it fine if not fine. Start taking that pup hunting by himself to corn feeders and he will tree one. Don't even kill it. Do this a few times and u will see huge improvements. At 10 to 12 months hell be doing as good as a 3 year old that had had a ton of coon shot to it. I have a 2 1/2 old blue right now that has only had 3 coon shot out to him totally. He trees coon every time I hunt him and so have all the others I've trained. And by the way I've won a bunch of hunts too! If this don't help you then you are hunting the wrong Blue dogs. PM me and I'll try to help further! Who needs a pup trainer? You are it!!!

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Island City Blues

Count your blessings everyday!

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Originally posted by ICB
I guess I should say that I prefer to raise NATURAL pups. This is a pup, be it 8 weeks old or 16 weeks old, that the very first time it smells a coon track it opens, runs the track, and then trees on it. This pup has never seen a coon or had a coon shaken in front of it, or been teased with anything. This kind of pup was born running and treeing. No training required.

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Bring one to Texas I even say he can be 6 months and prove it !!!!

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Wesley Martin
Hell on the Red Blueticks

quote:

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Originally posted by ICB
I guess I should say that I prefer to raise NATURAL pups. This is a pup, be it 8 weeks old or 16 weeks old, that the very first time it smells a coon track it opens, runs the track, and then trees on it. This pup has never seen a coon or had a coon shaken in front of it, or been teased with anything. This kind of pup was born running and treeing. No training required.

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Originally posted by wesley martin
Bring one to Texas I even say he can be 6 months and prove it !!!!

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Broaden your horizons

Well in fact I have had two pups I know of end up in Texas.

One of them was putting it on the old dogs at 6 months. I have never hunted down there but they told me the pups front legs were bare and raw because he had so much drive that the brush and thorns kept his legs hairless scratched and bleeding. At 5 months old they had to spend about 8 hours getting a boat to get to him because he had treed on an island in a big river. Unfortunately the stud dog here in MO that they were out of quit reproducing way to early.

The other pup that went down to Texas went to some guy with a dog named Garrett. He was putting my pup in ads before he was 1 yr old. "Unbelievable" is how he described him. He ended up being sold for a pile of money to a guy out east and he was hit and killed within a month or two. These two Texas sensations were both out of my 3rd place reproducing female.

I raised alot of pups out of 6 different females. All 6 of these opened and treed on scent the first time that they smelled coon scent. Every litter they threw had several that would run and tree on scent NATURALLY with no enticement.

I didn't create these genetics they were the products of Warren Haslouer, Ed Mead, Dave Dean, Rick Meyer, Tim and Paul Vaughn, Russ Downing....and all of the others that had a part in the crosses that made them what they were.

As Ed used to say in his 80's ads....seeing is believing....come on up and see it with your own eyes.

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Island City Blues

Count your blessings everyday!