UKC Forums - Performance Program

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Posted by Brandon Gudgeon on 01-17-2013 08:14 PM:

Performance Program

What's everyone's opinion on the Performance Program? I realize with the point value continuing to drop, some are losing interest in paying up their sires. I realize that as the owner of a stud that only plans on breeding for themselves, it can be expensive by the time the stud and litter is all paid up.

It seems like it doesn't really pay out in the end unless you're mass producing pups and hunting bigger hunts. I know around here an average CW is just about gonna get your entry fee back. Not saying it should be about the money, as it's nice to just get something back, but in the end is it really worth it? Do people still require a puppy to be perf eligible before buying one? I know I said I'd never put my time into one that wasn't, but I find myself caring less about the Performance Program and more about the coondog.

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Posted by JustinH23 on 01-17-2013 08:23 PM:

I more than covered my entries last year. I would not buy a pup that was not in the program.

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Posted by josh on 01-17-2013 08:34 PM:

The biggest problem with the PP is the low entry #'s at local hunts

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Posted by Blue Iron on 01-17-2013 10:32 PM:

UKC implemented a policy change this year. They upped the fee to permanently nominate a pup to $30 if they're under 6 months and $100 from 6 months to 1 year, after a year old they can't be permanently nominated. They said the reason for this was to get the point value up some.

I co-own a little female off Brummy that in limited hunts earned almost 2 points, that's over $200 coming my way. I'm not going to get rich by any means, but it's a nice little boost. I won't own a pup that isn't Performanced nor will I breed to a male who isn't a Performance sire.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 01-17-2013 10:37 PM:

I've said it since it came out. This should have had an age limit. Would hold the point value up there more I think. You can make a little money as it is and I guess that's better than nothing.

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Posted by Brandon Gudgeon on 01-17-2013 11:03 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Blue Iron
UKC implemented a policy change this year. They upped the fee to permanently nominate a pup to $30 if they're under 6 months and $100 from 6 months to 1 year, after a year old they can't be permanently nominated. They said the reason for this was to get the point value up some.

I co-own a little female off Brummy that in limited hunts earned almost 2 points, that's over $200 coming my way. I'm not going to get rich by any means, but it's a nice little boost. I won't own a pup that isn't Performanced nor will I breed to a male who isn't a Performance sire.

Panic did what most of us wish our dogs could do.

Posted by patches9452 on 01-17-2013 11:21 PM:

They also added where you could permanently performance the whole litter for one fee also.... Think it was 150$ if not mistaken

Posted by LIL-E on 01-17-2013 11:23 PM:

When do the checks go out? I got one once but have not got one in a year seems like.

Posted by Dan Dogs on 01-17-2013 11:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by LIL-E
When do the checks go out? I got one once but have not got one in a year seems like.

end of march every yr.

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Posted by Blue Iron on 01-18-2013 12:05 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Brandon Gudgeon
Panic did what most of us wish our dogs could do.

She just won a few casts and a couple of them happened to at "bigger" hunts

Posted by RFussnecker on 01-18-2013 03:26 AM:

? about performance papers

If the papers say perm nominated for performance program on them does that mean the dog is in the program?

Posted by RFussnecker on 01-18-2013 03:28 AM:

If the dogs papers say perm nominated for performance program, does that mean its in the program?

Posted by Brandon Gudgeon on 01-18-2013 03:29 AM:

Re: ? about performance papers

quote:
Originally posted by RFussnecker
If the papers say perm nominated for performance program on them does that mean the dog is in the program?

Yup! As long as you are registered owner at time of winning, you'll get a check at the end of the year.

Posted by jculler8 on 01-18-2013 05:03 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Blue Iron
UKC implemented a policy change this year. They upped the fee to permanently nominate a pup to $30 if they're under 6 months and $100 from 6 months to 1 year, after a year old they can't be permanently nominated. They said the reason for this was to get the point value up some.

I co-own a little female off Brummy that in limited hunts earned almost 2 points, that's over $200 coming my way. I'm not going to get rich by any means, but it's a nice little boost. I won't own a pup that isn't Performanced nor will I breed to a male who isn't a Performance sire.

I'd really like to know why WE have to pay extra to make the point values depleted by UKC in the first 3 years of the program worth more now, after the fact.

I'd like someone to post what a point value was worth on the 3rd year of the program and what the point cap was back then.

I'm just curious, I was not around then, but have heard a few stories about some "very large payouts" in the very first few years of the program.

The way I see it, in the first at least 2 years of the program, very little is payed out because the newly nominated pups physically can't do any substantial winning until at least 1.5-3 years old.... So the pot should've been pretty big, why is it so small now?

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Posted by GA DAWG on 01-18-2013 06:10 AM:

First few yrs the points where extremely high. Then more dogs came along and winnings went down. Now you have 6,7 or 8 yr old dogs and down earning points. That's why its went down. Its probably about as low as it will go though.

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Posted by Brandon Gudgeon on 01-18-2013 06:35 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
First few yrs the points where extremely high. Then more dogs came along and winnings went down. Now you have 6,7 or 8 yr old dogs and down earning points. That's why its went down. Its probably about as low as it will go though.

I don't understamd that. Only cuz now and forevermore there will be dogs in the performance program up to older ages as you stated so the pot will be divided more than when the program first came out. The way I understamd it, when it first came out the point value was higher because most of the perf paid up dogs weren't at the ages yet to compete. Now there are perf dogs all over dividing up the pot more and more.

Posted by Christy on 01-19-2013 04:10 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jculler8
I'd really like to know why WE have to pay extra to make the point values depleted by UKC in the first 3 years of the program worth more now, after the fact.

I'd like someone to post what a point value was worth on the 3rd year of the program and what the point cap was back then.

I'm just curious, I was not around then, but have heard a few stories about some "very large payouts" in the very first few years of the program.

The way I see it, in the first at least 2 years of the program, very little is payed out because the newly nominated pups physically can't do any substantial winning until at least 1.5-3 years old.... So the pot should've been pretty big, why is it so small now?

The administrative fee is a pretty big chunk of that. it's 10% i believe.

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Posted by runnin rebels on 01-19-2013 01:31 PM:

it is simple

When the program was in its 1,2,3 years there were few dogs mature enough to win in a hunt so you had a lot of money in a pot divided by a few winning dogs. now you have maybe a little more money in the pot, but it is divided by every dog that has been bred in the last 8 years. I just looked at my stubs and from the year of 06 the point value was $400, 07 $298, 09 $196.

in order for the point value to go back up they need to put an age limit on the dogs that can earn points

the idea was never to make a lot of money just to get some back.

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Posted by JiM on 01-19-2013 01:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jculler8
I'd really like to know why WE have to pay extra to make the point values depleted by UKC in the first 3 years of the program worth more now, after the fact.

I'd like someone to post what a point value was worth on the 3rd year of the program and what the point cap was back then.

I'm just curious, I was not around then, but have heard a few stories about some "very large payouts" in the very first few years of the program.

The way I see it, in the first at least 2 years of the program, very little is payed out because the newly nominated pups physically can't do any substantial winning until at least 1.5-3 years old.... So the pot should've been pretty big, why is it so small now?

Those large payouts were the first year when there was no cap on the number of points won per hunt. I recall that, I think it was Larry Prouix, won the reg hunt at AO with a pup. Back then you got a flat two points for every 20 dogs entered. The AO reg hunt enters what, 200 or so? Prioux won something like 20some points and this was back when points were worth 400 bucks. That's a BIG check! UKC saw the problem and fixed it quickly. Most always expected the point value to level off and hold steady at around 100 bucks per point. I think they will continue to do what they think is necessary to keep the program at the $100 per point level.

As for that last question, just do the math.
You got $100000 being divided by 100 dogs, that's $1000 per point. You take $500000 being divided by 5000 dogs, that's $100 per point, like we have today.

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Posted by slobbermouth21 on 01-19-2013 02:10 PM:

I could care less about it but there are people out there that look down on dogs and want buy them if they ain't all grand pp and ss about like the man who buys a Cadillac and a man one man buys a ford the man who buys a Cadillac wants to show off while the man who buys a for could give a crap less as long as it gets the job done.

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Posted by walkerdog1 on 01-19-2013 08:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by slobbermouth21
I could care less about it but there are people out there that look down on dogs and want buy them if they ain't all grand pp and ss about like the man who buys a Cadillac and a man one man buys a ford the man who buys a Cadillac wants to show off while the man who buys a for could give a crap less as long as it gets the job done.

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Posted by JiM on 01-19-2013 09:01 PM:

You guys seem to miss the point of these programs. First of all comparing All Grand to a nominated pup shows just how far off base you really are because All Grand refers to a level that was earned by the dogs ancestors. PRP and SS are something that is just simply bought. Any numbscull pup can be paidup no matter how totally worthless they are. That a pup is PRP and/or SS says absolutely nothing about that pup itself. So it ISN'T like comparing a Caddy to a Ford, it isn't a comparison at all. The reason so many won't feed any pup that isn't paid up is because they prolly consider it wasteful to spend time, effort and money to develope a pup that isn't eligible to earn all that money and that will NEVER be worth as much as one that IS eligible. I don't know anyone that would buy a pup that wasn't PRP nominated but I'm sure many do.

Posted by Autumn Clements on 01-19-2013 09:04 PM:

If I was to buy a pup off a stud dog it would have to be performance eligible. If I was getting a pup from a friend, I prob still get the pup if it wasnt performanced or raising my own litter, as of yet I've paid my males and litter all up but in future I may consider not to due to cost of the whole thing

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Posted by dperry on 01-19-2013 09:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Those large payouts were the first year when there was no cap on the number of points won per hunt. I recall that, I think it was Larry Prouix, won the reg hunt at AO with a pup. Back then you got a flat two points for every 20 dogs entered. The AO reg hunt enters what, 200 or so? Prioux won something like 20some points and this was back when points were worth 400 bucks. That's a BIG check! UKC saw the problem and fixed it quickly. Most always expected the point value to level off and hold steady at around 100 bucks per point. I think they will continue to do what they think is necessary to keep the program at the $100 per point level.

As for that last question, just do the math.
You got $100000 being divided by 100 dogs, that's $1000 per point. You take $500000 being divided by 5000 dogs, that's $100 per point, like we have today.

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Posted by jculler8 on 01-19-2013 09:27 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Those large payouts were the first year when there was no cap on the number of points won per hunt. I recall that, I think it was Larry Prouix, won the reg hunt at AO with a pup. Back then you got a flat two points for every 20 dogs entered. The AO reg hunt enters what, 200 or so? Prioux won something like 20some points and this was back when points were worth 400 bucks. That's a BIG check! UKC saw the problem and fixed it quickly. Most always expected the point value to level off and hold steady at around 100 bucks per point. I think they will continue to do what they think is necessary to keep the program at the $100 per point level.

As for that last question, just do the math.
You got $100000 being divided by 100 dogs, that's $1000 per point. You take $500000 being divided by 5000 dogs, that's $100 per point, like we have today.

No Jim, I disagree. You answered my question right off the bat... No point cap. The problem was fixed in year #3 of the program, yet we are all suffering from the large loss of the pot in year #2. Same story goes with our government's spending from the tax pot.

Also, in your number crunching, you forgot the fact that money is compounding annually and more dogs pay into the program than what is collected. (Very few dogs that pay in actually reward out).

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