UKC Forums - score this one... very odd situation!

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-- score this one... very odd situation! (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928276317)

Posted by kayapellijed390 on 10-14-2012 09:18 PM:

score this one... very odd situation!

Dogs A. and B. are struck in and treed. Dog C. is not struck in nor declared treed and has not been heard at all. When the Judge arrives at the tree all three dogs are at the tree and the tree is slick. Dog.C is standing on the tree and even bouncing around a little and is sniffing the bark and at the most maybe whinning a little but is not barking. The rules say that a dog that is treeing but not declared as such when the judge arrives will be awarded the next available tree position and then minused. Can you do this if the dog is obviously showing the tree but not barking? Also if you do award and minus the tree points do you do anything with strike points? This happened at a hunt last night and we where definately confused as to what to do LOL!

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Posted by POTOMAC on 10-14-2012 09:41 PM:

Isn't that only if a coon is scored on??not on a slick

Posted by kayapellijed390 on 10-14-2012 10:00 PM:

No.

Read rule 4. G. Dogs treeing but not declared treed when judge arrives will be minused tree points on off game or slick tree. Tree points will be determined by next available position. That may not be word for word I just typed thar from memory but you get the jist of it.

Posted by Rocketman55 on 10-14-2012 10:24 PM:

Well I'm gonna take the position that if the dog is not barking, then it is not treeing, and therefore should NOT be awarded the next available and minused. It seems that what you are saying is that you never heard, nor seen the dog bark, therefore I don't see how you can award, since it does require a dog to be barking before it can be declared struck or treed.

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Posted by JiM on 10-14-2012 10:32 PM:

This one is answered in the Advisor, this exact question. Kellam says the dog must be treeing for rule 4(g) to be applied. Was the dog treeing or wasn't it? That is a judges call and the only question the judge needs to answer is treeing or not treeing and was the dog treed when the judge arrived.
As for strike points, when 4(g) is applied, strike points are minused unless the strike was shut out.

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Posted by StrawberryMt on 10-14-2012 11:14 PM:

Dog has to be barking to be declared treed so no dog should not have been assigned next available. If you were standing on a fence row and no leaves on a moonlit night you can see a coon in a tree a dog trails into it shuts up and just keeps standing on the tree even jumping up on the tree, would you accept a tree call from a handler? No treeing is barking. Strike points would be minused according to rule 4d (as jim said 4g directs you to 4d)

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Posted by Jack Bingham on 10-14-2012 11:28 PM:

I would give the dog 50- on tree (next available) nothing on strike because its shut out. The dog was on the wood bouncing around whining it's showing tree (Minus).

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Posted by GA DAWG on 10-14-2012 11:47 PM:

Its not struck in or nothing. How you gonna minus something that's not there or might as well not been there lol.

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Posted by Rip on 10-14-2012 11:48 PM:

It has to be TREEING, that is the operative word. If you wouldn't accept it as treeing to plus it on a coon you can't assign minus to it on a slick or off game.

If it didn't bark it can't be treeing because you can't tree a dog that isn't barking (legally anyway LOL).

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Posted by Jack Bingham on 10-15-2012 12:02 AM:

So if they would have treed the dog in would you give it plus points. I bet you would so why not minus. The dog is showing tree it's minused. By some of your line of thinking lets say all 3 were treed in you get there and 1 dog is on tree but not barking you gonna give him plus I bet you will because he's showing tree.

Posted by GA DAWG on 10-15-2012 12:05 AM:

I can't except any call I can't hear first. If I couldn't hear it strike. They couldn't have treed it.

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Posted by shawnfitzgerald on 10-15-2012 12:09 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jack Bingham
I would give the dog 50- on tree (next available) nothing on strike because its shut out. The dog was on the wood bouncing around whining it's showing tree (Minus).

this is why there is so much trouble in the hunts these days no one knows the rules. Dog gets nothing except maybe the non hunting rule depends on how long you stand around the tree after you recast the other dogs if that dog is not struck in you can't handle it.

Posted by Jack Bingham on 10-15-2012 12:11 AM:

The dog would be minused next available on tree because it was slick. you would not be able to minus strike points because it was shut out. dog does not have to be treed in on a slick tree to be minused on tree.

Posted by Rip on 10-15-2012 12:19 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jack Bingham
So if they would have treed the dog in would you give it plus points. I bet you would so why not minus. The dog is showing tree it's minused. By some of your line of thinking lets say all 3 were treed in you get there and 1 dog is on tree but not barking you gonna give him plus I bet you will because he's showing tree.

The rules and the advisor are clear. The dog has to be at the tree and TREEING when the judge arrives to get assigned points. No way around it within the rules.

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Posted by Geminite on 10-15-2012 12:22 AM:

So how did ya'll end up scoring it? And was the dog handled at the tree or left alone? Just curious.

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Posted by Rip on 10-15-2012 12:26 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Geminite
So how did ya'll end up scoring it? And was the dog handled at the tree or left alone? Just curious.

Any dog at a tree being scored, regardless of what is doing, MUST be handled by rule. No way to leave it loose and see what it will do, when you get to the tree every dog at the tree must be handled, every dog that comes into the tree has to be handled. You don't have a choice to not handle the dog.

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Posted by truly on 10-15-2012 12:28 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
The rules and the advisor are clear. The dog has to be at the tree and TREEING when the judge arrives to get assigned points. No way around it within the rules.

One way of determining whether dog is treeing or not would be to imagine putting the two on this dog. As in Strawberry Mt's example, if you could see a dog was treeing, or could see that it was trailing but had never barked, wouldn't you be running a two on the dog treed, or the 8 on the dog struck in?
Years ago at an RQE a ? came in where a dog that was not struck or treed was messing around a skunk that was being attacked by two dogs that were struck and treed. MOH ruled that a dog that had never barked couldn't be scratched for being around that skunk.

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Posted by Geminite on 10-15-2012 12:35 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
Any dog at a tree being scored, regardless of what is doing, MUST be handled by rule. No way to leave it loose and see what it will do, when you get to the tree every dog at the tree must be handled, every dog that comes into the tree has to be handled. You don't have a choice to not handle the dog.

Chill out lol, i know this. I was just curious what they did.

This same exact situation came up a few months back at our club, the dog was not minused.

Posted by Rip on 10-15-2012 12:44 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Geminite
Chill out lol, i know this. I was just curious what they did.

This same exact situation came up a few months back at our club, the dog was not minused.

Nothing to "chill out" about. I wasn't excited LOL. I was just clarifying something before it got out of hand by somebody taking it and running with it. I realize you didn't say leave him loose or anything. I think someone above you posted something about seeing what he would do, or not handling him. I think someone else posted that you can't handle a dog that isn't struck or treed.

I was just making sure everyone realize that every dog at a tree being scored has to be handled, no exceptions.

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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 10-15-2012 12:49 AM:

Re: No.

quote:
Originally posted by kayapellijed390
Read rule 4. G. Dogs treeing but not declared treed when judge arrives will be minused tree points on off game or slick tree. Tree points will be determined by next available position. That may not be word for word I just typed thar from memory but you get the jist of it.

i would say tree it for him if it was up on whimpering[ barking]
some dogs are not very loud.

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Posted by Geminite on 10-15-2012 12:52 AM:

Lol fine by me. Caps lock usually means the person posting is a little agitated, that's all.

Posted by kayapellijed390 on 10-15-2012 02:09 AM:

What if there had been a possum in the tree would that have changed anybody's mind? I would have felt that if the dog was standing on the wood bouncing around then it was "molesting" off game because it had it cornered and was preventing the possums escaoe down the tree. Do you have to bark to molest? Couldn't a dog silently catch and kill a possum or skunk and still be either minused or scratched? Or technically a dog only has to bark once every two minutes to be plussed so should we have stood there for two minutes to see if the dog barks? In my opinion the purpose of this rule is to minus guys who really know their dogs. I know if my dog rolls in on a tree a doesn't locate right that their is a good chance that something is wrong. In a situation like that I am gonna either not tree my dog or wait till the last second. This rule is designed to punish thise dogs doing wrong but their handler knows them well enough to know they are wrong and are hoping their dog gets the heck out of dodge. JMO

Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 10-15-2012 03:18 AM:

either way you win the tree by at least 150.

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Posted by Troy Arnold on 10-15-2012 03:51 AM:

So if the dog doesnt have to bark to be considered molesting game does that mean you get minused or scratched if your dog never barks but comes in and smells like he got sprayed by a skunk?

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Posted by smokin-1-mo on 10-15-2012 05:09 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
The rules and the advisor are clear. The dog has to be at the tree and TREEING when the judge arrives to get assigned points. No way around it within the rules.

THATS A TOUGH ONE.....BUT IM WITH YOU RIP HOW YOU GOING TO MINUS A DOG THATS NOT TREEING JUST CHECKING A SLICK...

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