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A Breeding Experiment Explained

OK… here’s my rationale for a breeding decision, I recently made. It’s a done deal, in fact she’s due in a few weeks. I’m just wondering if anyone else follows my train of thought, or if I’m all wet.

I’ll be the first to admit that I’m not fully versed in the science of genetics, DNA, out-cross versus line breeding etc. And my buddy Joe has already provided me his thoughts from that perspective, which I truly respect. But… I do understand that a dog’s traits are founded in their genetic make-up, and yes it does come from the top and bottom of the pedigree. I also understand the difference between dominant and recessive traits, and realize that you can’t simply mix white with brown and get light tan! But I also realize that with all that we know about genetics and bloodlines, nobody has developed the perfect strain of coondog. That’s not to say there’s not consistency in one’s breeding program, just that there’s still a good deal of inconsistency, and less than desirable results.

So… I took what little I knew and applied it to a “5000 foot view” of what I had/have in the kennel. For those that know me, you know that I was heavy into this sport in my younger years; I took a ten year break and then got back into it heavily. What I and many others around me, hunted 20 years ago, were heavy Finley River and House’s Clint and Lipper bred hounds. I recall the Finley River dogs were all heart and consistently solid coondogs, but the Clint and Lipper bred dogs had more of a “spark”. They seemed to be higher energy, louder and more exciting tree dogs that drove a good track. If you wanted to win hunts, you packed a Lipper hound, if you wanted to tree a coon with snow on the ground; you took a Finley River dog to the woods. And when I was getting out of hunting, the Wild Clover/Casey dogs were just coming on the scene.

For the past few years, I’ve been hunting and hunting with, heavy line-bred Clover dogs. What I’ve witnessed were solid coon dogs that could also win a hunt. Mine in particular will tree plenty in the summer, but do his share in the snow, as well. He can drive a hot track, move a cold one, take pressure, get deep and still be a pleasure to hunt. He’s smart, but he’s also mental, emotional, and generally high maintenance. I’ve seen him shred a cast, in a pouring down rain storm, but I’ve also seen him make back to back slicks because (this is my opinion) he’s upset that I made my first drop with another dog! He’s smoked other dogs to a tree and then turned around and left it, because another dog looked at him cross-eyed. He has intelligence and talent to spare, but he seems to over-think too much and acts jealous, to the point that it’s frustrating to compete him.

So here’s my train of thought… Stylish Clover was the product of Wild Clover and a Lipper female. And the dog I have in my kennel resembles a blend of traits between the Lipper and Finley River type dogs I used to know. And if you have ever heard him, he sounds like a Lipper dog. And when I’m proud of him, he’s using several of what I would call Lipper traits, without all the mental BS. So in my logic, during my 10 year hiatus, the industry managed to blend those Monroe and House traits (or what I would call their traits). But somewhere along the line, these personality flaws were folded in. So… I looked for a female with Lipper in her 3-generation pedigree (a Cade bred female) and crossed her back to my male. The goal being, accentuating those Lipper traits and perhaps diluting or masking some of the personality flaws. The male is Clover, on top of Clover on top of Clover, and the female is Lipper, Yadkin River and Red Eagle. So I know I got more than Lipper with the female, but nothing that really raised any flags.

Does any of this make sense or is this an experiment that will go bad???

David Schmidt

It seems to me breeding coondogs is as much, if not more, art than science. Most of us overthink crosses, only to end up with nothing like we expected....but at the same time not suprised either.

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Bad decisions make good stories.

I know nothing about breeding but sounds to me like you know what your trying to create.Ive been thinkin some clover would improve my stock of hounds.

I've seen consistantly that personality traits are the hardest thing to breed out ... you can breed in tree , looks , mouth and about anything else but you can't breed out crazy or quirky.

It also seems that if you wanna know what's really inside a dog , look at consistancy and hunt them hard in all kinds of weather and don't just remember the fair weather hunts when the coon were moving ... the fair weather dogs that get bred don't seem to throw even as good as themselves.

Alot of folks breed dogs that can tree coon , when it don't work for them I think the above two things are the reaason why.


Your reasoning is a good as any , a good eye for horse flesh or a gut instinct that you can trust aren't things we can explain ... but they sure are handy .

To me it sounds you are on the right track. When you get into genetics in coon hounds my own thoughts are you can breed for many characteristics, but environment and training play a large part, but you have to have traits like desire and three things I think you need as a base of any breeding program they are ABILITY, BRAINS, AND CONFORMATION. Without desire you have nothing, without ability you still have nothing, without brains your training will be mostly wasted, and without conformation they can't stand up to the rigors needed to be a top hound. I don't mean bench show conformation I mean bones ,feet, muscle, hair to stand the weather, and voice enough to hear. You have to start with similar characteristics with both the male and female, my opinion. I believe if you get 50% of the litter to turn out close to what you are looking for you are headed in the right direction, anything more would be super. Make sure they get into the hands of people who will bring out their best.
Good luck and I hope it works out for you.
After thought. If either of the dogs you start with if the fault is genetic inbreeding will multiply it most likely. It's hard to increase the good , but easy to increase the bad. (from experience)

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Ignorance: the lack of knowledge, education, etc.
Stupidity: lacking normal intelligence.
Intelligence: the ability to learn or understand.
You can't fix STUPID!

Dave,

Don't hate me for this....and I will be the first to admit that your male came from my kennel, and my breeding program.

But Boom is NOT breeding material...... He is a good pleasure dog, he is a decent dog in competition, but he has some traits (the moodiness for the most part) that would eliminate him from any breeding decision I would make. I've seen him make too many "jelousy" trees...a trait that I am well aware of, and make specific breeding decisions based upon. I won't breed one that trees close by just because they got beaten to a tree.

Now, you and I both know that there is a large "gap" in his life that we don't know what happened to him. Are those personality issues "nature" or nurture. I'm reasonably certain that he had the thunder thumped out of him for barking in the kennel as a young dog....and the family of dogs that I raise all have the same response to physical punishment....they cowar and quit. If a dog owner is not smart enough to correct a dog in a way that is conducive to that particular dog...they shouldn't own a dog.

I've said it a dozen times to you and a thousand times to others...If you don't want another one JUST LIKE THE ONE YOU HAVE....don't breed it!

I can point you to littermates to boom, and to full brothers and sisters from the same cross that don't share his personality imbalances. Is it nature or nurture, I don't know 100%, but I still would not breed Boom....that's just me.

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

With Yadkin River , Lipper and Red Eagle listed, a person might wonder if Nocturnal Skipper is back in the shadows .

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D. Glenn Wells, Jr.
UKC MOH

I LOVE MY BOOM female i have from dave

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and co owner of
HBCH C&T's Just Let Me Go (Justice) 2012 HB National 2nd placed registered

Rest in Peace
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two beloved boys who are missed dearly but always in our hearts an memories
you are sadly missed !!!!!!

I hope the peanut gallery can stay away from this one.

I do not have any input but I am how ever interested in following along with this conversation!

Hats of for thinking about coon dogs.

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Of course, she is a hound … the moment she realizes that I’ve been bragging her up… and has an audience…..she’ll go trash on a deer or pull some other equally idiotic stunt..

I've owned a bunch of Finley river and Lipper dogs and I'd say he acts a lot like the Finley River dogs. Moody and quirky!!! The Lipper dogs I'm used to had one brain cell and you could whip them to hell and gone and they would still do what they wanted. Never phase them at all. The Finley river dogs although strong headed at times Treeing coon u could stick you tongue out at them and they would slink off. You want something that will certainly not be a wall flower here to breed to him. Listen to the man you bought him from

Josh - I hear you. I have yet to see a line of dogs, where I would say, "they nailed it" and I want one of them. And I've seen a lot of stud dog owners that will clearly explain why they've developed the best line, but have yet to come across an out-cross they weren't all for!

Jackson87 - there will be some heavy Clover pups (although experimental) available in November.

Dirtdevil - I agree with you on personality, and Joe's right in that you may always wonder if it's nature or nurture, depending on the circumstances.

The Seeker - you're right and it could be that the traits I dislike could be recessive Lipper traits that other breeding brought out, and I'm about to double back on!

Joe - I'm not going to disagree with you, which is why I'm not paying to advertise Boom at stud, although I have sold a few pups out of him. Of course the folks I know with pups, apparently including Foghorn, all had good things to say about them. In his first litter, there were 10 pups, with two getting hit on the road after they left my kennel. Of the 8 remaining, I kept track of 6, not including Foghorn's. Of those 6, all were treeing there own coon by 8 months old, 2 of which were "naturals" learning all on their own. My two, showed no signs of being "mental". But I didn't own them long enough to see if jealousy trees were a fault of theirs. And... that cross was to a female out of a stud, which even you described as more Lipper than Clover. But as I said to Josh, if there was a stud out there putting exactly what I wanted into pups, I'd breed to it, or just buy the pups. But I'm not really satisfied with anything else I've happened across, so I'm experimenting with my own. Now I can already hear you say, fine then keep them to yourself. And my answer is that I seriously doubt I'll do near the damage several of these big name studs are doing.

If Boom's "mental" issues are due to nurture, then there's no risk to this cross, other than how I and others choose to raise them. If it's nature, but recessive enough to not show up, in any siblings then the only risk is doubling up on the recessive trait. But since I'm doing an out-cross to a dog that doesn't demonstrate that trait, the odds are against that too, right?

Again, the deal is done, but I'm trying to create a frame of mind around what I'm about to witness and trying to proactively understand it, as opposed to retroactively explain it.

David Schmidt

cody - I agree with you, which is why I bred him to a Lipper female as opposed to making a Finley River cross.

And let me make something clear, I would gladly have another Boom in my kennel! Does he frustrate me from time to time, yes. But he has repeatedly earned a place at my house, or I wouldn't own him. But I'm a perfectionist and want something more or at least somewhat different.

This experiment is not because I don't like what I'm feeding! I like a lot about both of these dogs, and I probably have less complaints with the female. This experiment is in the hopes of producing something a bit better, or at least a bit less of what I dislike. And if I can do that, I'll take the baby steps to get where I want to be.

David Schmidt

Boom- Loudest dog alive that i know of today, i consider him to have an overpowering huge mouth

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Just my opinion....... If you breed a tried and true coondog to another tried and true coon dog then you have a vary good oppurtunity of creating a "coon dog". To have a better chance of getting the qualities that you may want would take generations of seletive breeding, that most of us would never do. Humans are to impatient, and like to gamble way to much. If you sell all the pups, how do you really know what has happened and what is a fluke. You could actually clone a dog and never even get close to the same dog that you had before. There are so many things that happen in a dogs life that turn them into what they acually become. Even after years of breeding one mistake could change everything. What makes a dog Lipper bred or Clover bred?. Do the pups truely have the same style as there grandfathers or even great grandfathers, or could it be that one pr. Line that we never look at on our papers.

I believe a "super dog" is more of a fluke. I will never claim to be a beeder but Ihave bred my dogs to my friends dogs for years, some closely bred alike. But i never really knew what I was going to get. But it was cool to see what I might get.....either way we always made coon dogs out of them, and liked most of them. And of course we always said they was double bred on some old femalethat we really liked, but it really didnt mean jack.

Blaming bad habits in a dog on "nurture" will and has caused more cull litters over good ones 10-1 at least.

It's a pet peeve of mine for a dog to show some goofy or shy or mean habit and the previous owner get blamed for a junk dog .... without any proof , any due diligence or nothing .. it's a kneejerk reaction to justify you feeding a dog when your gut is screaming not to.

Me-tooing , Big ears on trees , trashyness , shy , mean , lazy , incosistant ... all that stuff is deep down in a dog's heart and passes on more true than any good trait .

Seen it over and over and over ..... I'm done with it , it's much better and cheaper in the long run to just keep looking til' you find that dog to breed from that has the traits you like without the quirks.

It sounds like you are on the right track here. I've done some breeding with dogs in 30 years and can't say I had good success. Although I did learn a bunch a long the way. I've been breeding Brangus cattle for about 20 years and have taken that to a great level with high success. Attitude and personality traits for me seem to be fairly easy to control. Remember though there is No fail safe breeding program. In cattle you arent breeding for brains and in a dog brains trees more coon than ability every time. Boom sound like a smart dog and above av intell. His moods and personality are going to show up in his pups regardless. Usually for some reson most of the undesirables surface the most at first. Let's say you have 8 pups. I'll bet 5 will be below av. 1 being totally worthless. One like what you want...with things you want to change and one really lipper like... Hard headed. Over time as they grow up select the best one you think and go back and breed it to Booms brother. I think thoughs pups will be more of what you want. Basically thinning down the undesirables. All about selection. Just my opinion!

You know I just re-read what I posted on here last night, and I want everyone to know that Dave is one of my best friends....so he gets my sarcasm, even when it's in writing on a message board....

Now, having said that, I can assure you I still own a littermate female to Boom...and she shares NONE of the personality "quirks" and/or the jelousy treeing traits that Boom displays. I also own a half brother to him, again, none of those issues. I know of another litter mate that is as nice of a dog that you would want to snap a lead strap to...and has the same overpowering mouth.

Would I breed to Boom...no, and you know why....mostly because I have other choices.....I can breed to sisters and brothers of Boom that do not demonstrate the concerns that even Dave admits are there.

Dave is a great guy, a good hunter. He is either really lucky or he has a knack with pups..cause he can get em goin!

Dave, you know I always wish you the best, good luck with your experiement......

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

quote:

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Originally posted by Dirtdevil
Blaming bad habits in a dog on "nurture" will and has caused more cull litters over good ones 10-1 at least.

It's a pet peeve of mine for a dog to show some goofy or shy or mean habit and the previous owner get blamed for a junk dog .... without any proof , any due diligence or nothing .. it's a kneejerk reaction to justify you feeding a dog when your gut is screaming not to.

Me-tooing , Big ears on trees , trashyness , shy , mean , lazy , incosistant ... all that stuff is deep down in a dog's heart and passes on more true than any good trait .

Seen it over and over and over ..... I'm done with it , it's much better and cheaper in the long run to just keep looking til' you find that dog to breed from that has the traits you like without the quirks.

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Breeding

I don't know what does and does not work. Although,if Boom has these faults that you call traits could it be stashed in his littermates as well?

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David Disotell
(318) 288-1917

You keep saying its not in Your dogs (the quirks and moods). If he breeds those pups like I demonstrate on my last post he's fixing to find out if it's a Boom problem only or if the problem is really in Your dogs you just can't see it. I guarantee you that. No offense please , I beg your pardon if I offend you

biggest thing i see if some of a paticular stud is good then alot must be better attitudes ! when line breeding all traits multiply good and bad some of the best dogs out there are half brother half sister crosses then they breed to same stud line again and again and then they wonder why they end up with what they end up with so so dogs ! for any good line to survive out crosses must be made this is the way i see it ! i grew up and worked many years in the dairy industry and a.i. the best herds use many many different bulls looking for a balance ! the herds that used 1 bull in paticular on all there cows always seem to go backwards because one bad gene is put in there whole herd dairy farmers make there money on 2 things production and longevity she could be a huge producer but if her udder is on the floor at 4 how long will she be in the herd as a example of a bad gene. i feel the same way about hounds stud dogs are overated the females are where its at !

Joe you seem to be back tracking again from your first post .You said Boom is not breeding material and that you have told Dave this several times.Now its because you say you have other options sounds like some are liking what boom is reproducing.If he has holes like you say i think it must have come from your years of your selective breeding and his mates to me would be no more breeding stock then him.

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Did you come to win.

quote:

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Originally posted by cody jaster
You keep saying its not in Your dogs (the quirks and moods). If he breeds those pups like I demonstrate on my last post he's fixing to find out if it's a Boom problem only or if the problem is really in Your dogs you just can't see it. I guarantee you that. No offense please , I beg your pardon if I offend you

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

What you are saing is that they are timid.

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Did you come to win.

quote:

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Originally posted by bob country jr
Joe you seem to be back tracking again from your first post .You said Boom is not breeding material and that you have told Dave this several times.Now its because you say you have other options sounds like some are liking what boom is reproducing.If he has holes like you say i think it must have come from your years of your selective breeding and his mates to me would be no more breeding stock then him.

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels