UKC Forums - Aggressive Behavior?

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Posted by BBQ Guy on 07-09-2012 02:24 PM:

Aggressive Behavior?

Can a dog be scratched for aggressive behavior for face barking while tied 2 the tree?

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Posted by Frank M on 07-09-2012 02:37 PM:

No! In order to get scratched for agrisive behavior you also have to have interference! If the dogs are tied at the tree you dont have interference.

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Posted by wakenda creek b on 07-09-2012 04:03 PM:

I had a judge scratch one of my dogs for growling because the other dogs left tree when he did it.Ive had a judge see another dog grab my dog by the face and didnt scratch the other dog because it didnt interfere with her treeing.Seems like everybody interprets this rule differently.Ive never had to scratch a dog for fighting while i was judging but i think if a dog grabs another by the face it should be scratched interference or not.

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Posted by JiM on 07-09-2012 04:30 PM:

Re: Aggressive Behavior?

quote:
Originally posted by BBQ Guy
Can a dog be scratched for aggressive behavior for face barking while tied 2 the tree?

Aggressive behavior is just that no matter where it occurs and no matter the circumstance. If that aggressive behavior interferes with other dogs, then absolutely it must be scratched.
The fact that the dog is tied is completely irrelevant.

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Posted by JiM on 07-09-2012 04:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by wakenda creek b
I had a judge scratch one of my dogs for growling because the other dogs left tree when he did it.Ive had a judge see another dog grab my dog by the face and didnt scratch the other dog because it didnt interfere with her treeing.Seems like everybody interprets this rule differently.Ive never had to scratch a dog for fighting while i was judging but i think if a dog grabs another by the face it should be scratched interference or not.

Brian, the problem in your post is a common misconception in UKC. The judge and often even the MOH, don't understand the difference between "fighting" and "attempting to fight". The end result is exactly the same for both, scratched and written up for fighting. But they are not define in the rule book the same way. FIGHTING is aggressive physical contact.....CONTACT! One dog grabs another dog, that is fighting. You scratch the aggressor. If you can't decide the aggressor, you scratch both. ATTEMPTING TO FIGHT is aggressive behavior that interferes with another dog(s). If growling, blowing, face barking cause another dog to leave, then you obviously have aggressive behavior WITH interference. Scratch and write up the aggressive dog. If growling, blowing, face barking DO NOT cause any interference to other dogs, you cannot scratch them. Simple as that.

Posted by BBQ Guy on 07-09-2012 04:56 PM:

How can it be interference if the tree is closed and the dog is tied?
It seems to me the only reason it was an issue is because the judge would have had to take minus for his dog coming in.
So if a dog growls while loading it in a box with another dog does it get scratched? If you have to look for rules to take the competition out.I believe you are fooling yourself and should find another dog.

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Posted by JiM on 07-09-2012 05:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BBQ Guy

So if a dog growls while loading it in a box with another dog does it get scratched?

See, this is what I just can't comprehend. I give a very simple explanation of what "fighting" and "attempting to fight" is, and how it is handled and a guy comes right back and asks this question.

Growling is darn sure aggressive behavior. Now you have to determine if that behavior interfered with other dogs or didn't it? If it did, scratch. If it didn't, then don't do anything.

As for your comment that the tree was closed and dog tied, so what! The fighting rules are in effect during the authority of the judge which is from the time the MOH hands out the card and until the card is handed back to the MOH. Anytime between then, the rules are to be enforced. If the tree is closed, dog tied and it aggressively interferes, it is scratched. Did your dog interfere with another dog while tied? I have no idea, I wasn't there.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 07-09-2012 05:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Brian, the problem in your post is a common misconception in UKC. The judge and often even the MOH, don't understand the difference between "fighting" and "attempting to fight". The end result is exactly the same for both, scratched and written up for fighting. But they are not define in the rule book the same way. FIGHTING is aggressive physical contact.....CONTACT! One dog grabs another dog, that is fighting. You scratch the aggressor. If you can't decide the aggressor, you scratch both. ATTEMPTING TO FIGHT is aggressive behavior that interferes with another dog(s). If growling, blowing, face barking cause another dog to leave, then you obviously have aggressive behavior WITH interference. Scratch and write up the aggressive dog. If growling, blowing, face barking DO NOT cause any interference to other dogs, you cannot scratch them. Simple as that.

Jim has done a great job of clarifying right here.

How it should be done and how it is done is up to us as hunters.

Posted by BBQ Guy on 07-09-2012 05:28 PM:

Clear enough Jim Thank you Just needed to know how it is supposed to be handled. The rule book gets clear as mud to me sometimes

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Posted by wakenda creek b on 07-09-2012 05:34 PM:

Thanks for the response Jim.I agree with your statement.Thats how I would have judged both circumstances but I wasnt the judge on either cast.

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Posted by HOBO on 07-09-2012 05:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by headless01
if a dog growls at a dog before cut loose, is that agressive behavior. line up dogs with 2 dogs in beyween growler and when cut loose growler makes b line straight to dog again and starts growling again chasing it though woods, isthis agressive behavior? dogs stop 20 yrds out an have growling match, and dog comes back to owner and is pursued by growler all the way postures aggressively in returnig dogs face. at this time both dogs attempt to fight , which dog is aggressor and should be scratched?

If the growling affects the other dogs hunting then yes it can be agressive behavior.

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Posted by chub83 on 07-09-2012 06:01 PM:

I have a question on this whole matter. This happed to me a while back we turned the dogs out and before they were out of the distance of our lights a guys male tried to breed my male so in turn my male truned and snapped at the other male dog he wanted to just scratch my dog. I told the judge that both dogs should be scratched you would of thought the other guy got shot!!! I think he called me every name in the book. long story short we took it back to MOH and he scratched my dog for fighting. what is your guys opion?

Posted by JiM on 07-09-2012 06:20 PM:

Just using your description of the situation, I would have found that the dog that tried to breed your dog was the aggressor and I would have scratched that dog only.

Posted by john Duemmer on 07-09-2012 06:42 PM:

Not sure i can agree that a dog can interfear while tied, aggressive behavior yes but thats only one component required to scratch. If the dog is attempting to fight scratch him but growling while tied being called interfearance would be a stretch. Samething with a dog growling in the box, how con he interfear with another dogs ability to hunt when hes in the box.

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Posted by chub83 on 07-09-2012 06:52 PM:

jim

That was my thoughts but I was young and didn't know anything about anything so i just gave in and didn't fight it walked away and knowing my dog had done no wrong in my eyes but back the other dog off of him. went back to the club house got a bit to eat and took him out for a fun hunt with a few buddys and we treed 5 that nite so all was good It's just ashame that peaple cann't accept when their dog does wrong

Posted by smokin-1-mo on 07-09-2012 06:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Not sure i can agree that a dog can interfear while tied, aggressive behavior yes but thats only one component required to scratch. If the dog is attempting to fight scratch him but growling while tied being called interfearance would be a stretch. Samething with a dog growling in the box, how con he interfear with another dogs ability to hunt when hes in the box.

THAT IS AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR...IM NOT SURE BUT I THINK ONCE YOU ARE PART OF THE CAST BE IT LOADING THE DOGS TO GO HUNTING OUR IN THE WOODS THEY CAN BE SCRATCHED FOR SHOWING AGGRESSION.....JUDGES DISGRESSION.....

Posted by john Duemmer on 07-09-2012 07:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by smokin-1-mo
THAT IS AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR...IM NOT SURE BUT I THINK ONCE YOU ARE PART OF THE CAST BE IT LOADING THE DOGS TO GO HUNTING OUR IN THE WOODS THEY CAN BE SCRATCHED FOR SHOWING AGGRESSION.....JUDGES DISGRESSION.....

No they cant be scratched for showing aggression... They can be scratched for fighting or attempting to fight or for a combination of agression and interfearance, but facebarking which is agressive but not necessarily interfearance is not scratchable unless it causes another dog to leave, which would then be both aggression and interfearance.

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Posted by josh on 07-09-2012 07:04 PM:

If you cant uderstand this rule after reading JiM's posts you never will.......Reading - comprehension just isnt your thing.

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Posted by BBQ Guy on 07-09-2012 07:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Not sure i can agree that a dog can interfear while tied, aggressive behavior yes but thats only one component required to scratch. If the dog is attempting to fight scratch him but growling while tied being called interfearance would be a stretch. Samething with a dog growling in the box, how con he interfear with another dogs ability to hunt when hes in the box.

I was thinking the same thing, this one wasn't growling just possessive barking(same thing). The tree the dog was tied to was closed so I thought there is nothing to interfear with. The dog coming in would take minus no matter what. But clearly we are wrong. Don't get me wrong I don't like mean dogs,just didn't understand the ruling. In this case it probably didn't matter. I just want to know the proper ruling. There sure is alot of different opinions on the subject though

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Posted by Rip on 07-09-2012 07:47 PM:

There may be alot of diffrent opinions but there is only one correct ruling and Jim has it.

To be scratched for attempting to fight there has to be BOTH agressive behavior AND interferance. One without the other and the dog can not legally be scratched.

Scratched for fighting is self explanitory, they must be fighting for that to occur, in other words contact must be made.

It's really pretty simple. The only time confusion comes in IMO is when people have a dog that is too agressive and they twist it around and want to let dogs actually fight before being scratched or when people have a dog that is too timid or not a good enough treedog and they twist it around the other way and want everything that they can scratched because it looked at their dog.

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Posted by KRAINES on 07-09-2012 08:03 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by chub83
I have a question on this whole matter. This happed to me a while back we turned the dogs out and before they were out of the distance of our lights a guys male tried to breed my male so in turn my male truned and snapped at the other male dog he wanted to just scratch my dog. I told the judge that both dogs should be scratched you would of thought the other guy got shot!!! I think he called me every name in the book. long story short we took it back to MOH and he scratched my dog for fighting. what is your guys opion?

Same thing happened to me but the judge wanted to scratch both of us so I just withdrew and didn't argue.

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Posted by ForkdOaksKennel on 07-10-2012 04:59 AM:

If you are going to play the game you gotta have one that can get face barked and look straight up like it never happened. Just part of it. I was on a cast one night with 2 male dogs and mine the only female. All 3 dogs were bleeding at all 4 trees. Never had it happen before or after and she never missed a breath treein. Must have been some mean, light broke son of a guns.

Posted by bluetickman2002 on 07-10-2012 05:00 AM:

i scratched 2 dogs for fighting on the leash on the way out of the woods before because i didnt see who started it and no one wanted to fess up

so i scratched them both and gave them some advice on how to handle an aggressive dog

thankfully the fella took my advise and the dog died of lead poisining 2 weeks later

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