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angulation and structure

Stance
Stance refers to the direction of the limbs with respect to a horizontal surface. A dog's stance greatly influences its topline, and therefore its general appearance, as well as its sporting ability. The stance provides a good base and the proper distribution of weight on the joints and feet. For correct limb position, the limb's main axis usually must be vertical. Positions other than vertical overload the joints and the sole of the foot (on the side where the departure from vertical occurs). This leads to premature fatigue in the joints, tendons and various ligaments (a particularly severe handicap for working dogs). Stance is thus of more than purely theoretical and aesthetic interest.

STANCES IN DOGS - SIDE VIEW
1 - Normal Stance
2 - Back at Knee
3 - Down in Pastern
4 - Knuckled Over
5 - Receding Wrist
6 - Long in Pastern
7 - Upright Pastern
8 - Camped Forward
9 - Camped Out
10 - Hyperextended Hock
11 - Stands Under

STANCES IN DOGS - FRONT VIEW
1 - Normal stance
2 - Turned-out feet
3 - Turned-in feet
4 - Base narrow
5 - Base wide
6 - Spread knees, pigeon toes
7 - East-West front
8 - Pigeon-toed
9 - East-West feet

STANCES IN DOGS - REAR VIEW
1 - Normal Stance
2 - Base Narrow
3 - Base Wide
4 - Turned-out Feet
5 - Pigeon-toed
6 - Cow-hocked
7 - Barrel-hocked, Spread HocksWhen a dog is camped, the dorso-lumbar topline sags and the back slants. If the forelimbs also sag, the dog is said to be saddle-backed. In a collected dog, the loins dip and the back curves upwards. Turned-out feet are frequently seen on the hind legs, which is a natural tendency. Pigeon toes are more of a problem, however.
Stance: Forequarters
- Side view: A vertical line through the center of the arm passes through the center of the foot and forms a tangent with the wrist (the anterior side of the carpus). If the vertical line is in front of the center of the foot, the dog is back at the knee; if it is to the rear of the center, the dog is camped. If the wrist is in front of the line, it is said to be knuckled over and the dog has a fetlock deformity; if it is behind the line, the wrist is receding. If the vertical line falls distant from the footpads, the dog is long in the pastern, and if it nearly touches them, the dog has an upright pastern.- Front view: A vertical line dropped from the point of the shoulder should evenly divide the forearm, wrist, cannon bone, and foot. The two limbs should lie within parallel planes.- Pigeon-toed: The wrists and elbows are turned outwards; the cannon bones and feet are turned inwards.- Turned-out (east-west) feet: The elbows are too close to the body, the cannon bones and feet are outside the vertical. Pigeon toes and turned-out feet can begin at any point on the leg.- Base narrow or base wide in front: The front limbs are slanted and their extremities converge or diverge. This is not to be confused with a narrow or wide front, where the legs are parallel. If only the wrists are inside the vertical, the dog is knock-kneed. If the wrists are curved in but lie outside the vertical, the dog is said to be bandy-legged. A stance called the Chippendale front or fiddle front also exists, where the legs curve outward.
Stance: Hindquarters
- Side view: The cannon bone should be vertical with respect to the ground. A vertical line dropped from the hip joint should pass through the middle of the foot.- Camped forward, stands under: Most of the limb is in front of the vertical line. If it is behind the line, it is camped out (stretched), which is not really a fault as this is a natural position. If the hock joint is too sharply angled, the dog is said to stand under; in the opposite case, the hock is hyperextended.- Rear View: A vertical line passing through the point of the rump and the hock should divide the cannon bone equally. The dog may be too narrow or wide of base, which is defined by the convergence or divergence of the limbs'extremities. This should not be confused with a narrow or wide rear. When the limb is rotated outward from the hip joint, turned-out limbs result. In this case, the stifles and feet diverge, while the hocks converge. When the limb is rotated inward, pigeon toes result. The stifles and ends of the feet converge while the hocks diverge.
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Heart Throb Coon Hounds and
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these images should have loaded in above post but didnt oh well they are in order....

__________________
Heart Throb Coon Hounds and
show supplies
contact info: 440-645-7875 or
Heart.throbcoonhounds@gmail.com

keeping up for a while

__________________
Heart Throb Coon Hounds and
show supplies
contact info: 440-645-7875 or
Heart.throbcoonhounds@gmail.com

Re: angulation and structure

quote:

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Originally posted by Sandi
Stance
A dog's stance greatly influences its topline, and therefore its general appearance, as well as its sporting ability. This leads to premature fatigue in the joints, tendons and various ligaments (a particularly severe handicap for working dogs). Stance is thus of more than purely theoretical and aesthetic interest.
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Re: Re: angulation and structure

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Do any actual coonhunters or big game hunters really believe that "stance" affects a hounds "sporting ability"? A buddy of mine had an English pup that got hit by a car and broke her front leg in 2 places. The leg healed and grew back all crooked and bowed. She was one of the hardest going hounds that I have hunted with. She could go all night and did so at an old age. I have seen cow-hocked, flat footed and crooked legged dogs that could do the same. I know that "Stance" does affect their appearance and "aesthetic interest". Theoretically it should affect their abilitiy to hunt but in the real world does it really?

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__________________
When it comes to coonhounds some people are easy to please. I'm Not!

GrNiteCh Ch Oak Branch's Black Bird Star
Wipeout Chesapeake Piper

Thats right, 1 or 2 nights a week for an hour or two sure, but a dog that can hunt hard every day in rough terrain and hold up for years... have to be comformationally sound!

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Andi & Keith Emory
Wabash River Redbones & Amer. Leopard Hounds

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In Loving Memory of
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That's why a lot of the big game hounds you see have pretty decent conformation. Some of those coonhounds winning big hunts look pretty "broke down". Not saying they can't hunt good with structural issues....heart/desire can overcome a lot for many years.
I've just always wondered if those flat-footed coondogs actually do better in muddy and wet conditions. My brain says it would be logical. I know my dogs with bigger feet (not the little golf-ball showdog feet with straight pasterns, but not splayed either) held up better and got around good bear hunting and hunting in muddy and wet rice fields.
I'm glad in this sport/hobby that there are good representatives who can show and hunt good. Just not so many of those are big game dogs since they tend to live on the "fringes" of the coonhound world.

__________________
Chawn
Rincon Kennel (formerly Chisum-Trail Kennel)

Don't take life too seriously -- nobody gets out alive!

this is only ment to be educational! this is a great discription with images explaining what the breed standards are already expressing Just trying to inform more folks, yes some judges as well as breeders and future owners on what would be the "best" structure.

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contact info: 440-645-7875 or
Heart.throbcoonhounds@gmail.com

sandi....

your post is very good, my opinion. it is worth copying for future reference as well. thank you for posting! maybe some can learn from it....

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AMAZEN COONHOUNDS

Yes stucture is important for a dog to hold up night after night in the woods. The problem is what the breed standards call for in feet. The feet in the standards DO NOT hold up in the woods. Hunt a dog with great "Show" feet and see how bad the dog holds up in the woods. Put that dog on snow and ice and see how much time you spend tending to there feet and legs rather than hunting. They punch right through the snow and ice rather than stay on top. The dogs that have a less tight, knuckled feet are much better off. Yes there nice to look at on a bench, but the bottom line is can they do the job they were born to do!

Rebecca Agee

here are the feet descriptions for every coonhound breed. All of them, except English, make a reference to 'cat-like'. I always took that to mean the big cats, not the house cat. If a dog is "running" in snow and icepack then they will break thru. But if they have the stealth of the cat, then they should not - and how many dogs have that???

If the dog had feet that MET the standards at a minimum then they should hold up in the woods. this goes back to the point of this thread (I think) to educate persons (breeders, owners, judges) in what is the "correct" structure for a dog, regardless of breed. why wouldnt a dog with the feet described below (along with correct legs, etc) work correctly?

I go on the basis that these standards were put into place many, many years ago by ppl that went thru the trial and error so those following would not have to. they set this as the FOUNDATION of their respective breeds so those that follow would improve and make it better than what they had and improve on the foundation. maybe somewhere the road split and the foundation was not followed any longer...who knows??


B&T
Tight and well padded. Toes short to medium and close knit. Neither cat-footed nor splay-footed. Foot to be proportionate to the size of the body.

Leopard
The cat-like feet are of moderate size, round and compact, with well arched toes. Pads are large, tough, and well cushioned.

Bluetick
Round (cat-like), with well-arched toes. Pads are strong, hard and thick. The size of the feet should be proportionate to the size of the dog.

English
Tight, well-arched toes, deep pads, and strong nails.

Plott
Round, cat-like foot, with deep pads and well-knuckled toes.

Redbone
Cat-like. Compact, and well padded, with strong, well arched toes and stout, well set nails.

TW
Solid, compact and well padded, with a cat-like appearance. Toes are well arched with strong nails

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When I think of a cat's foot, I think of a foot that's round. Of the few dogs I've had with round or nearly round feet, their feet could not hold up to days/weeks of bear hunting in the CA mountains. (And I was never a hard hunter.) They were sore-footed, usually with slipped pads, after a good long day or two.
My dogs with oval shaped feet (2 middle toes longer), nicely knuckled toes, and big thick pads had very few foots problems.
Personal experience makes it really hard for me to breed for the round foot that I interpret the standard to be asking for. It's really frustrating to spend most of bear season doctoring feet, and obviously it's painful for the dogs.

I think the cat type foot is very pretty to look at as long as it's in proportion to the size of the dog, but I personally like the description for feet used in the standard for the American Blue Gascon Hound. It calls for an oval shape, which in my own personal experience is more functional. I realize the discussion here is in regards to UKC-recognized hound breeds. Still, in my perfect world, the UKC standards would equally accept both a cat type foot and an oval foot.

__________________
Chawn
Rincon Kennel (formerly Chisum-Trail Kennel)

Don't take life too seriously -- nobody gets out alive!

Tight feet look good and in general work well. I always think of deep snow and how you can walk on top by wearing snowshoes. This snow shoe effect translates to less pressure / sq.in. transferred to the snow or ground and should mean easier going for a bigger footed dog .
All said and done if you want to win shows you need tight feet and they hunt too but in the woods I've seen it make little difference compared to heart and drive and just general single minded find a coon attitude. Occasionally you get a dog that just out runs, out swims and overall outdoes everybody else and it isn't always the best looking one so in my mind there's a balance there somewhere that we don't always see and recognize for what it is.
Don't confuse not being in shape to do the job with bad body parts because if you haven't worked up to it and toughened up as all athletes do you will be in pain and wore out regardless of your true potential.

if you feel flat feet....

are ok...then look up what it does to you. i know we aren't built like dogs, but the same problems do arise with their feet as with our own. doubt it? look it up....

__________________

AMAZEN COONHOUNDS

my dogs

Not show dogs couldn't win a bench show with them there feet are not flat or cat like but I never had a foot problems I hunt 3 to 4 night in off season and in season I hunted 89 out of 92 nights of season in snow,woods,swamps,mud,8 to 10 hrs a night and never had a problem never slowed up and my old female is 9 years old hunt her for 10 her home at dark she's at door ready to go again!they don't have show feet.my English was 90 lbs and had big feet round stood on his toes tight I was told his feet were to big,so many times by judges I started to think he's 90 lbs other going to be big!they look the same as the ones that beat him just bigger never understood it?never had foot problems.

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Re: my dogs

quote:

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Originally posted by damon shivers
Not show dogs couldn't win a bench show with them there feet are not flat or cat like but I never had a foot problems I hunt 3 to 4 night in off season and in season I hunted 89 out of 92 nights of season in snow,woods,swamps,mud,8 to 10 hrs a night and never had a problem never slowed up and my old female is 9 years old hunt her for 10 her home at dark she's at door ready to go again!they don't have show feet.my English was 90 lbs and had big feet round stood on his toes tight I was told his feet were to big,so many times by judges I started to think he's 90 lbs other going to be big!they look the same as the ones that beat him just bigger never understood it?never had foot problems.

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Re: Re: my dogs

quote:

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Originally posted by l.lyle
I hunt marsh. Coons got big feet to me that ain't pretty . it's how the pick them up and put them down that counts.

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__________________
Chawn
Rincon Kennel (formerly Chisum-Trail Kennel)

Don't take life too seriously -- nobody gets out alive!

angulation and structure /turned to feet thread

well a few of my simple minded thoughts on feet; feet like a coon , not what you want on a hound i dont think. coon feet are designed for climbing to refuge and feeding, not for outrunning . yes they sometimes put on some long chases but most of those i believe consist of some climbing around on stuff to mess up their pursuer. cat feet are designed for cats , short running animals that do a bunch of leaping/springing and climbing.... . i feel that a tight oval shaped foot is what we are looking for in our hounds! .......there is a judge around here that probably shouldnt be judging.............its best to be blue and when he nees to pick a winner "i'll have to go with this dog it has better feet" come on man sometimes there has to be a different reason for one dog beating another!!!!! THANKS FOR POSTING THIS ANGUALTION THING , I HOPE TO LEARN !!!!

Very informative thread. Every bench show judge should study the images maybe down load them and look at them once in a while.

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Stupidity: lacking normal intelligence.
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thanks fro the input everyone. as I stated earlier, I dont create the standards it is just my job as a bsj to try and inform what has been set as a standard. In working animals Form MUST meet funtion for happy healthy hounds And more folks need to look at over all BALANCE not just the parts. God Bless all reading.

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Heart Throb Coon Hounds and
show supplies
contact info: 440-645-7875 or
Heart.throbcoonhounds@gmail.com

quote:

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Originally posted by Sandi
And more folks need to look at over all BALANCE not just the parts. God Bless all reading.

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__________________
Chawn
Rincon Kennel (formerly Chisum-Trail Kennel)

Don't take life too seriously -- nobody gets out alive!

BTT. This needs to be downloaded at looked at once in a while.

__________________
Ignorance: the lack of knowledge, education, etc.
Stupidity: lacking normal intelligence.
Intelligence: the ability to learn or understand.
You can't fix STUPID!