UKC Forums - Inbreeding Question

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Posted by Darren Hollis on 01-30-2006 03:27 PM:

Inbreeding Question

I know this is a sore subject with some people.Has anyone had any experience with this and what were the results?I know that Dave Dean has bred very close for several generations, and the Hussler bred bluedogs were inbred and linebred heavily.Thanks in advance for the info.
Darren

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Posted by Leonard Bishop on 01-30-2006 03:45 PM:

inbred

Had a pup out of full brother and sister that I raised.Started real earley and was a beautiful dog with a head full of since.As good a young dog as any.

Posted by sheepster on 01-30-2006 03:47 PM:

I've owned two dogs that were out of half brother/sister crosses. Both had all the coon treeing ability you could ask for. But one was very growly and the other could tree a coon but was too lazy to hunt very deep.

Posted by Bkdogg on 01-30-2006 04:12 PM:

Your risking lots of bad health traits with inbreeding. That sooner or later will be bred into other good pure lines. Why would you want to hurt a breed like this! It should NEVER be considered.

Posted by engman99 on 01-30-2006 05:31 PM:

BKdogg,inbreeding does not cause anything,it only reveals what was already there in the first place.

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 01-30-2006 05:32 PM:

Bkdogg,

The health traits were there anyway. Inbreeding does not put anyting in the genetic mix that was not already there.....simple as that.

Outcrossing just hides them. And they show up several generations down the line.....out of the "blue".

If the two dogs that are mated and closely related are exactly what you are looking for, then make the cross.

Better to have the skeletons out of the closet.

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Posted by zace on 01-30-2006 06:23 PM:

Right on Oak Ridge,

Inbreeding can also be a tool for identifying and eliminating undesireable traits. Both mental and physical.

Posted by TN-steve on 01-30-2006 06:53 PM:

i dunno,,i hate to ask on your thread,,but can i breed my boston terrier,to his daughter,,i ask before but can't remember

Posted by Larry Atherton on 01-30-2006 07:40 PM:

TN-Steve,

Why would you want too? I am not asking to be a smart alec. I just don't understand the need for some of our dog breeds. I like dogs, but I have to have a working dog. I am not a fan of lap dogs, and I am definately not a fan of dogs that have been selected for extreme phsyical traits.

Personally, I would not inbreed any of the breeds that have exaggerated jaw structures. JMO

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Posted by Bkdogg on 01-30-2006 08:13 PM:

Yes there already there, so your making them even stronger and more profound. If you wouldn't marry your brother or sister Why would you breed a father and daughter. There are plenty of hounds out there with good quilities of different bloodlines, do a little work and go find them and try doing some good for your breed.

Posted by Leonard Bishop on 01-30-2006 09:40 PM:

Bkdogg
Hillbilly Hog wash!!!!!!!!! Call and tell Dave Dean that.

Posted by Darren Hollis on 01-30-2006 10:00 PM:

Thanks Guys

Thanks for the response.Out of those who have responded to this thread,how many have had experience?Bkdog, have you tried inbreeding?I have a Dual Grand Male and his daughter is also a Dual Grand.He is the one of the best hounds I have ever hunted with and his daughter is the best blue female I have ever hunted and is right up there with the best I have hunted with.the male has been all but sterile since he was 5 yrs old.He is 10 now and is in good health.I have been giving him vitamins and a "special potion" that is supposed to help.Neither dog has any bad faults other than going til they find a coon, regardless.Just thinking about it because the old blood that they represent is getting hard to find.Thanks for the input, and I gaurantee that if I do it they will be culled to the extreme and no "skeletons in the closet."
Darren

Posted by SwampMus.Kennel on 01-30-2006 10:35 PM:

I had a Dual Grand Male and his daughter was Dual Grand also.. I bread them together to solve this ancient question.. My results were: She had 8 pups in the litter. Two of the pups had only 2 legs. One pup had one eye.. One more of the pups had both male and female genitals. As for the other 4 in the litter. they all made nt. champ. and one is dual grand.. Coon treein machines..I say go for it..

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Posted by TN-steve on 01-30-2006 10:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Atherton
TN-Steve,

Why would you want too? I am not asking to be a smart alec. I just don't understand the need for some of our dog breeds. I like dogs, but I have to have a working dog. I am not a fan of lap dogs, and I am definately not a fan of dogs that have been selected for extreme phsyical traits.

Personally, I would not inbreed any of the breeds that have exaggerated jaw structures. JMO

not to be smart to you either,but just because you want have a lap dog,,alot of children want have a working dog,,boston terrier are very good dogs for children,and around here there kinda hard to find,,a guy wanted my male to breed his female,i get first pick,i will pick a female and breed to my male,and yes try to sell the pups,,,,thanks,steve

Posted by Bkdogg on 01-30-2006 10:40 PM:

I guess I threw all my money away at collage learning about DNA and all the effects of inbreeding. Who needs proven scientific facts. With all the experts on this board.
Darren, if you really are intrested you should get your hands on the documentary OSU learning channel did on dogs and inbreeding. They inbreed dogs for yrs. to get a controled study on the health effects.

Posted by Rip on 01-30-2006 10:50 PM:

Blkdog, I have a bachelors degree in Biology and am finishing up medical school May the 6th. I've had a few up to date genetics courses and I am certianly familiar with birth defects and their mode of inheritance.

Inbreeding does not cause "defects" or health problems. Old Wives tales not withstanding it's not harmful in humans either other than morally.

Matter of fact that's how we got our great strains of mice to study the effects of drugs etc. If they weren't inbred to the point of being almost identical then our trials would mean nothing.

What inbreeding does do is allow the breeder to cull dogs that display recessive traits (those traits are already there, they are NOT created by inbreeding). That way you can REMOVE those bad genes and make the lineage STRONGER. It will uncover bad traits that were already present and will forever plaque the line without inbreeding and culling though. When you inbreed you can remove those.

(Obviously you don't "remove" humans, hence we have moral and scientific reasons for discouraging marrying too close). The Royal families used to inbreed all the time, that's how they kept their blood "pure". They had problems with hemophelia (which was already present), but they weren't 1 eyed 1 horned flying purple people eaters either LOL.

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Posted by jodaviess1 on 01-30-2006 10:50 PM:

INBREEDING

I HAVE SOME PUPS FROM A FATHER DAUGHTER CROSS RIGHT NOW. THEY ARE VERY NICE. I USED A DAUGHTER THAT HAD ALOT OF THE TRAITS I LIKE WITH VERY FEW IF ANY UNDESIRABLE TRAITS.SHE IS AN OUT CROSS ON THE BOTTOM SIDE OF HER PED.
THESE PUPS HAVE BRAINS, COLOR, MOUTHS, PERSONALITY AND THE TRAITS I WAS LOOKING TO INTENSIFY DID JUST THAT. I WILL BE DOING MORE OF THIS TYPE BREEDING IN THE FUTURE. PERRY VESELY P.S. DARREN, IF YOU MAKE THAT CROSS, PUT ME DOWN FOR A FEMALE. PERRY

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Posted by Justin Smith on 01-30-2006 10:51 PM:

Bkdog , inbreeding will affect different breeds differently .. depending on their makeup , health , genetic diseases nearest the surface , coi of the F-1 generations , selection of breeding stock ... plus a hundred more reasons.

So , the show you watched only pertained to the breed , strain and more importantly .. the exact dogs they used and that's as far as it goes.

Inbreeding can do different things to different dogs under different breeders .

Inbreeding for the most part will cause the most prevailant genes and traits to line up ... breaking a balanced mixture back into the parts that made it.

That is why inbreeding is a great tool for domestic animals like beef cattle or milk cattle ... but a poor long term method for breeding performance animals who must have balance , soundness and health .

If you can only repeat what you remember from a book , just tell us what the book was and we'll read it for ourselves and not lose anything in translation.

Posted by Darren Hollis on 01-30-2006 10:54 PM:

Bkdogg

I was not trying to be smart, sorry if it sounded that way.I would not inbreed but for 1 generation only.I still don't know what I will do, but the Hussler dog was bred to his mother,daughters,aunts, and they say they would have bred him to his brother, but he wouldn't be still long enoughLOLOLOLOL!!!!They had very good results.

Swamp Music
How do you know so much about Inbreeding, personal EXPERIENCE??DarrenLOLOLOL
What's up with that hunting territory??

Posted by NorthernBlue on 01-30-2006 10:56 PM:

Disgrace!!

I think this whole thread is a disgrace. How and why would anyone want to breed their hounds so close that it might cause harm to the health of the hound, or in this case the future pups. I am all for promoting the bluetick breed, but i am opposed to breeding sire and pup together. This should be banned from UKC and UKC should not register any hound breed this close. Father daughter. Or Brother sister. I cant believe that someone would even think to do such a thing.

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Posted by Justin Smith on 01-30-2006 10:58 PM:

Rip , are you sure you can remove an actual gene from a dog's genetic mass ? A dog will always the same number of genes , you can't add or subtract them .. only mix them up .

The idea of inbreeding to find faults and then cull the dog with those faults is obtuse ... it means you breed a litter with the intention of killing some of the pups .. but how do you cull a pup that is bred for performance ? You can't ... so now you have a batch of pups and some of them will need culled but you have to wait and see which ones after someone has become attached to the dog or it is out of your hands and in the world.....very silly reasoning.

Covering up bad traits and burying them in a pedigree results in more useable dogs with fewer culls with just as much progress .... and in the process you will keep much healthier stock with more genetic material that is expressed phenotypically ... essentially more dog in the same package.

Posted by Rip on 01-30-2006 11:02 PM:

Justin, yes you most certianly can "remove" a gene from a lineage. It's been done a blue million times. You don't remove it from a single animal, you remove the animals carrying that gene from the gene pool.

It is much easier with an autosomal dominant gene, but it can be done with recessives through years of inbreeding. Just look at the medical mice.

The idea is not obtuse because you better be dedicated before you do it. This means that you keep the pups around and cull later in order to help your lineage. This is not an over night process. It hasn't been in cattle or mice, or for the breeders that have had success in the dog world either, but it is the best way for measured, steady progress. Much, much better than outcrossing and "covering up" things.

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Posted by grandslam1926 on 01-30-2006 11:04 PM:

Northern Blue

Get a life, if you do any research this is a great way to improve the lines.

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Posted by NorthernBlue on 01-30-2006 11:10 PM:

Grandslam.. Name a Dual Grand Campion Coonhound that you own.. That's what i thought.

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Posted by Darren Hollis on 01-30-2006 11:12 PM:

PERRY

Perry, I will definately keep you in mind!!Ol Moonshine hasn't gotten any pups in awhile, but I may try this one time.My buddy that owns GrNtChPR Crosby's Smokin Joe has a female now from an inbred cross that is nice.He has started winning hunts and she is independant and is like her sire in many ways.My female is from a complete outcrossas well.If I could get one like ole Moonshine , I'd do it in a minute.
NOW GUYS---
Make sure we don't get too ugly on this thread.there is enough of that going on already.We can have disagreements on breeding and still be gentleman about it.We are all enjoying a common pleasure with our hounds.If everyone wanted the same thing, then some of us would be without.
Darren

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