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Which Bluetick Stud (for U J.v.)
WHO CAN TELL ME WHICH BLUETICK STUD DOG HAS PUT THE MOST HOUNDS (MALE AND FEMALE) ON THE CURRENT REP.'S LIST IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS.
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" OLD' DIAMOND JIM " LONG LIVE THE KING OF COONHOUNDS.
well
I will take a stab in the dark....at one time, the top #1 and #2, male and female were both out of chief....bullet and geronimo, rudy sue, and ...help me out tom, dont remember....there was one or two more in there at the same time wasnt there? I believe its the first time that has ever been accomplished, producing the #1 and #2 in both sexes....
I can't say
I can look at the percentages in the CB and come up with the same answer as Matt. However in that answer you have to look at what actually put old Chief where he is. No doubt in my mind it was that added recipe of the early Hammers Hammer>>Hammer III. The diamond jim stuff just didn't cut it at reproducing dogs thats why his blood didn't head up a kennel on its own............
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John M. Vaught
well
I guess you can look at it from the other side of the fence to....I mean, a hammer dog never produced like that, maybe it was the added ingredient of the smokey river dogs that gave them what they needed to produce that well....I havent seen any hammer dogs in the top ten, if they did contribute that much, why havent they produced those kind of producers, why arent more people winning with them....or studding them, or seeing them in the top ten....with so many hammers, why arent any of them in the top 10, or running the purina, or shootin for the world, UKC/AKC/PKC....why is that john? I mean, dancer ran the purina, did right well, hoss did very well in the world, no need to talk about bullet, geronimo top producer, rudys sue top producer, and several more not mentioned.....besides having that many generations to offer, what does the hammer line have to offer to the public that is undisputable, as in chiefs offspring....
Matt
Do you want John to answer or would it be alright if I did? Dave
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Dave & Nicki Oswald
WELL MATT
quote:Matt just take a look back how many hounds came from the Hammer Line Kennel. Very few successful kennels are without it and you can look back at the S.R. dogs and see untill that Northern Blue line was added they didn't fair so well. Chief as you know carried the blood of one of the most dominant line in the business that being Hammer III the other stuff in him was not all that successful. Then later came the blood of Spanky then Jet crossing on this line that adding back to this line Hammer top and bottom the blood of Hammers through III. were again brought alive to do what they do so well. As far as Chief's offspring goes it looks to me it did best when going back to Hammer through Spanky Hammer by way of Jet. You can study back and see all those other S.R. dogs in S.R. Jim were not reproducers. I have to say this just to let you know Matt and others I recieved info today that Diamond Jim was not a full blooded bluetick. He himself had papers put on him he was a walker/bluetick cross now chew on that a while but before you go off on me this is only hear say......However considering the source ...I do believe it.............
Originally posted by Blue Style
I guess you can look at it from the other side of the fence to....I mean, a hammer dog never produced like that, maybe it was the added ingredient of the smokey river dogs that gave them what they needed to produce that well....I havent seen any hammer dogs in the top ten, if they did contribute that much, why havent they produced those kind of producers, why arent more people winning with them....or studding them, or seeing them in the top ten....with so many hammers, why arent any of them in the top 10, or running the purina, or shootin for the world, UKC/AKC/PKC....why is that john? I mean, dancer ran the purina, did right well, hoss did very well in the world, no need to talk about bullet, geronimo top producer, rudys sue top producer, and several more not mentioned.....besides having that many generations to offer, what does the hammer line have to offer to the public that is undisputable, as in chiefs offspring....
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John M. Vaught
well
I am through with this post, and this debate, but I will humor you, one last time, as far as D.J. goes, I would say buzz andersons reputation is about as sterling as it gets, and I got it straight from him sometime back, so save your breath....John, I know hammer III won some big hunts, but what did he reproduce that even begins to compare with what chief produced? And you said the dogs out of chief that did so well were because they went back on Hammer, where does geronimo go back to hammer/jet/spanky excluding chief,or dancer, he goes back to diamond jim on his bottom side through fleetwood true boy II....and hoss goes back on diamond jim and other various smokey river dogs on his bottom side much more than hammer, if you want, I can get his 6th and put it on here, or you can take my word for it....all I can say is this, Chief, Bullet, Geronimo, Sue, and various others, they have proven what kind of producer chief was, as well as themselves, in the publics eye, via top 10, and through many pleasure dogs hunted throughout the united states....besides winning autumn oaks, what has hammer III done or produced that was known nation wide, what numerous dogs has he thrown to be such an outstanding stud dog, that he is dominant through 4 and 5 generations, regardless of what else is there....everything you say about the hammer dogs may be true, but why dont you tell us, the uninformed cooners what exactly the hammer line has to offer, what has been done with the hammer dogs that would prove to someone that their dog is a coondog because he has Hammer III in his 5th generation, what can you show us besides 19 generations of dogs with the same name, and a hunt win now and then.....
p.s. Yes, most of the dogs out there have hammer in them, yes there are a lot of hounds from his kennels, but who besides dave dean is linebreeding the hammer dogs, how many people are breeding for the hammer line...and as far as how warren did with his dogs before he added hammer in there, warren was huntin and breedin dogs before you were born, leave it to you to show how little you truly know about the smokey river line.... I know what warren accomplished with his dogs, and so do you......nuff said....
cheif
Matt what did Warren produce that he stood at stud? I have known Warren for forty years and far those forty years he has never trained a dog and for your information cheif was no part of a coon dog, he was a track straddling boo hooing SLOW SLOW SLOW track jacking growly dog that occasionally treed a coon.
Cheif produced good pups out of Hammer and Jet dogs but in reality these are one in the same, Geronimo is out of a jet bred female that was outstanding
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I Think WADE HALL
invented coonhunting he's
a GENIUS
Re: well
quote:I know enough to know there was nothing there until he got a piece of the rock...........the rock being Hammer...........DIAMOND JIM WAS A GRADE DOG WALKER/BLUETICK MIX AND IT IS NOT KNOWN IF HIS PARENTS WERE FULL BLOOD. Yes I have read the story on how he came about..........but there is an old saying....A piece of paper will lay still to write anything on it. Also I know what the papers read on the other dogs you mentioned but hear this I doubt any of the papers being right on the dogs in D.J Hoss, Dancer's background.......So there you have it Mr. Matt
Originally posted by Blue Style
I am through with this post, and this debate, but I will humor you, one last time, as far as D.J. goes, I would say buzz andersons reputation is about as sterling as it gets, and I got it straight from him sometime back, so save your breath....John, I know hammer III won some big hunts, but what did he reproduce that even begins to compare with what chief produced? And you said the dogs out of chief that did so well were because they went back on Hammer, where does geronimo go back to hammer/jet/spanky excluding chief,or dancer, he goes back to diamond jim on his bottom side through fleetwood true boy II....and hoss goes back on diamond jim and other various smokey river dogs on his bottom side much more than hammer, if you want, I can get his 6th and put it on here, or you can take my word for it....all I can say is this, Chief, Bullet, Geronimo, Sue, and various others, they have proven what kind of producer chief was, as well as themselves, in the publics eye, via top 10, and through many pleasure dogs hunted throughout the united states....besides winning autumn oaks, what has hammer III done or produced that was known nation wide, what numerous DIAMONFDdogs has he thrown to be such an outstanding stud dog, that he is dominant through 4 and 5 generations, regardless of what else is there....everything you say about the hammer dogs may be true, but why dont you tell us, the uninformed cooners what exactly the hammer line has to offer, what has been done with the hammer dogs that would prove to someone that their dog is a coondog because he has Hammer III in his 5th generation, what can you show us besides 19 generations of dogs with the same name, and a hunt win now and then.....
p.s. Yes, most of the dogs out there have hammer in them, yes there are a lot of hounds from his kennels, but who besides dave dean is linebreeding the hammer dogs, how many people are breeding for the hammer line...and as far as how warren did with his dogs before he added hammer in there, warren was huntin and breedin dogs before you were born, leave it to you to show how little you truly know about the smokey river line.... I know what warren accomplished with his dogs, and so do you......nuff said....
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John M. Vaught
easy.........
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Home of Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch.PR Littlejohn's Little Arkie and Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch.PR Littlejohn's Blue Rock
SMOKEY RIVER CHIEF
IS THE CORRECT ANWSER !!! DAVE AND JOHN, if diamond jim was half walker he was probally a littermate to the first hammer dog that was out of a walker named SNOW, take it or leave it but thats hammers daddy. Voyd Cannon, I could care less if chief could tree a coon or not as his offspring **** sure can. Ol' Chief did have a hard time gettin his 1st but he probally won more cast trying to nitech. then any dog, so yes chief was a coondog. If you would ask Warren what to breed a chief daughter to, he would tell you a chief son. CHIEF CROSSED GOOD ON EVERYTHING PERIOD. HOW COME YOU DONT SEE SPANKY STACKED UP TIGHT WOULD IT BE BECAUSE THEIR LAZY, THIS COMES FROM THE HAMMER DOGS I KNOW AS I HAVE CULLED A FEW. THEY WOULD OF BEEN NICE IF I WAS PREVILEDGED ENOUGH TO HUNT UP THEIR IN COON HEAVEN, BUT HERE A HOUND MUST HUNT FOR A COON.
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" OLD' DIAMOND JIM " LONG LIVE THE KING OF COONHOUNDS.
Re: well
quote:****your right Matt. anyways it was Bullet and Geronimo (tramp was out of 1/2 bro. S.R. Spud). Females were rudy sue, smoking blue indigo and white river sugar.
Originally posted by Blue Style
I will take a stab in the dark....at one time, the top #1 and #2, male and female were both out of chief....bullet and geronimo, rudy sue, and ...help me out tom, dont remember....there was one or two more in there at the same time wasnt there? I believe its the first time that has ever been accomplished, producing the #1 and #2 in both sexes....
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" OLD' DIAMOND JIM " LONG LIVE THE KING OF COONHOUNDS.
Indigo
is a father daughter cross on chief, and her mothers bottom side goes back on S.R. Be as well, I believe....
Matt
One thing I notice about you guys is both you and Tom cut into the Hammer line of dogs very very deep you both degrade the line and taunt it. I dont usually go to those levels when speaking of the S.R. dogs but I have said in the past I didnt think it was a line but more of a kennel with many lines mixed in. Not a real downgrade in my opinion. Anyhow on to answer a few of your questions. Diamond Jim and Hammer III were born a month a part almost to the day in 1968. Jim produced 39 Nt Ch and 9 Gr Nt with 1,679 pups. Hammer III produced 35 Nt Ch and 10 Gr Nt with 1,320 pups. So other than Jim beating III by 320 pups they produced very similar. You asked what the Hammer dogs have won? Well I guess name it, A couple oaks wins a couple Grand Americans countless State championships. Recently XVIII placed in the top ten of the world and the Hillbilly dog (sired by XVIII) has placed 7th and 5th in the Purina race without really trying to run the race. Now with that said you have to keep in mind this line of dogs is nearly 40 years old. Also I left out alot of wins because the list is just too long.
I think what sets this line apart from others is the nearly 1,000 1st and 2nd generation Nite champs and Grand Nite champs it had produced. I counted this up once and stopped counting at nearly 1,000 as it just got to hard to trace all the dogs and keep them straight. Also out of the "all time top producers" not current but all time (remember 40 yrs old) 20 stud dogs over half have direct Hammer influence. I could go on and on but I will stop for now.
Just one more note before I quit. The reason I like the Hammer II and III influence so much is the countless hours I have spent listening to Mr Dean talk about the traits and styles those two hounds replicate into this line of hounds. I think they may be the base from wich it all was formed. My studies and learning from others have taught me (in my Opinion) these two hounds greatly influenced Spanky,Chief,Jet V,Gert,Spike,and Bullet. I see here, some of the same traits you guys talk about out there (some not all). I have no S.R blood here at all. A few short years ago I had a young dog that looked identical to Spud. He was turning into a very nice prospect until a car ran him over. I guess maybe I am the guy trying to replicate Hammer II and III and breed the Hammer traits tighter and tighter. I am no great breeder and I am sure others have contributed way more than I have or prolly will, but I am trying.
Those Hammer dogs of the past won all over the country countless times. I dont think it was ever a regional bloodline like was mentioned above. And I also dont think any one person will EVER come close to duplicating or surpassing what Mr Dean spent 40 years completing. Just a few of my thoughts LOL. Dave Oswald
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Dave & Nicki Oswald
Dave
very good post, and I have not intentionally cut down the hammer dogs, but have asked many questions, which Mr Vaught will not answer, as to what they have done, which some you have answered for me....I truly know next to nothing about the hammer dogs, as I said, never seen one or hunted with one....If you read back, you will not find one slight made by me about the hammer dogs, simply questioned them, as in my opinion, they are no better or worse than anything else out there, it all boils down to preference....and I have not taunted the hammer line, (not intentionally anyway) but the man who is making a mockery of it....and warrens dogs do go back mainly to his own dogs, there are outcrosses here and there, and he has done as well with them as anyone has with their own, and yes, he did buy a good dog here and there, if he thought it would add something he lacked, or strengthen something he already had....but smokey river is a line, as you look back at most of the dogs pedigrees from warrens, and you will see his kennel name more than anything else, going back to more dogs from his kennel and blood....whatever works use it....I was in no way insulting you or your dogs, simply get tired of one old blowhard who has nothing better to do than trash/question/run down a good bunch of dogs....would enjoy huntin with your dogs sometime dave....as far as hammer III, I have no doubt he was a coon dog, did a lot of winning, and as far as being a producer, I will take your word for it, have not seen the #'s in some time, just stating that chief did his share of producing, and producing coondogs that did their share of producing....
my 2 $ worth
I don't want to get caught up in a debate here but I had to jump in.Warren buys all his stud dogs.THERE IS NO SMOKEY RIVER BLOOD LINE.PERIOD. He is a promoter not a breeder.He buys all his stud dogs.Now that's no big deal except that does not mean you are getting a pup that will make a coon dog.It does help the pocket book.Just look at the ped. on any thing of late they got alittle bit of every line in them.
As far as why never double up on Spanky.He was too tight mouth.I wouldn't want to double that up as well as hunting too wide.Bad combination.
My vote goes to the Uchtman dogs{I'm biased on them though}Even Warren bought two hounds from them and promoted years ago.Does S.R. Rambler and S.R. Lead ring a bell? You know what the joke was there though? Rambler was the better coon dog but Lead was the better reproducer. He sold Lead and studded the heck out of Rambler.
I hunted the Hammer dogs I just felt the Uchtman dogs suited my tastes better.Incidentaly Richard Casey has linr bred off the Hammer dogs and so have several others over the years.Even the Jet dogs Started out with the Hammer blood.Gary Uchtman out crossed and then in bred son to mother from the Hammer dogs.Does Flash,Flash II, Uchtman's Hammer ring a bell?
what has dave dean done..
what has northern blue done? you got to be kidding??!! LOL!!! i started in 1974..before several on here..what northern blue gave me and my husband? a hard tree dog. a fast starting pup. and a one-way track dog. what did he give the breed? that depends on who you are and what you like. LOL! elbert vaughn owned the bawler stud...daddy to ol rambler and lead. he was monkey-faced colored to boot. what did dave dean do? hmmm..how about setting up a line that didn't make you ashame to hunt a blue dog in the hunts. hw about winning in the major hunts when no other bluetick could or did? how about winning autumn oaks..with hammer III...against one of the toughest walkers..spring creek rock and one of the finest walker gentlemen of that time...duane clark? and how about..let's see...the grand american...first blue EVER hammer V...1978..first father and son..with hammer VI, he won it all...and then bam! a blue won again, 1979..a son of hammer V..carolina chip. now who has done that since? LOL! sure ain't any of the other boys. LOL! you want reproducing? i'd say hammer II..sire of hammer III. i won't start to list but how about..trapper..mich. rebel..benson's lil blue..hammer III..hody's bones? (who's littermate gave us dual gr ch germon's blue shadow.)..yes. and flash was bred to III. who cares? it's history...for the record of hammer III...he went down to the fall round-up and beat rambler and warren. he went to lyndoville, vt and beat t.c.jones and rattler..you think dean brags about this? give me a break...early hunters went to elbert. he never nite hunted. early competitors went to warren. never heard much of their wins. dave dean...he just wanted to beat em all...so he bred them and he did!!!!! LOL!! ol dean is like some of us other's age is slowing us down...but like elbert gone now almost 25 years...they'll still cuss n love the northern blue...i know i will.. thanks countrymile and waynev..
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AMAZEN COONHOUNDS
follow-up
some are making a big deal out of light color, monkey-face coloring., heavy coat. let's set it straight..the bluetick breeders i was familiar with...wanted one thing! WIN! and so that's what they did..some claim "they took the nose of the blue to make it capable of running with the walker"...yeah right. that's funny..the only line i saw doing that was northern blue..like trapper, hammer III, jet, rebel..down the road came a few more..like spanky. levi.. and bullet..and what about bullet? now i saw him first hand at autumn oaks and thought "that's a fine athletic fella."..i didn't pay any attention to his "head color" or his coat...i just saw a nice male that was starting to make a niche for his owner. and his breeding. there are bloodlines i don't particularly care for. i have some problems dealing with their idoicyncrasiesbut. i sure don't come on the internet to bash them! good luck in the hunts this coming year...wishing everyone the best the blueticks have to offer...regardless of the pedigree...
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AMAZEN COONHOUNDS
Re: Dave
quote:Blowhard or whatever I may be I have never been accuse of stealing anyones dogs. I will stick to my belief S.R.Jim was a grade dog and my doubts are still with me about the others...So Mr. rehabilitated dog catcher Chief put that kennel on the map as far as having its first stud dog. I noticed one reply telling how sorry of a dog he really was and that explains why he was only nite champion Chief just couldn't compete makes one wonder why he reproduced doesn't it..........
Originally posted by Blue Style
very good post, and I have not intentionally cut down the hammer dogs, but have asked many questions, which Mr Vaught will not answer, as to what they have done, which some you have answered for me....I truly know next to nothing about the hammer dogs, as I said, never seen one or hunted with one....If you read back, you will not find one slight made by me about the hammer dogs, simply questioned them, as in my opinion, they are no better or worse than anything else out there, it all boils down to preference....and I have not taunted the hammer line, (not intentionally anyway) but the man who is making a mockery of it....and warrens dogs do go back mainly to his own dogs, there are outcrosses here and there, and he has done as well with them as anyone has with their own, and yes, he did buy a good dog here and there, if he thought it would add something he lacked, or strengthen something he already had....but smokey river is a line, as you look back at most of the dogs pedigrees from warrens, and you will see his kennel name more than anything else, going back to more dogs from his kennel and blood....whatever works use it....I was in no way insulting you or your dogs, simply get tired of one old blowhard who has nothing better to do than trash/question/run down a good bunch of dogs....would enjoy huntin with your dogs sometime dave....as far as hammer III, I have no doubt he was a coon dog, did a lot of winning, and as far as being a producer, I will take your word for it, have not seen the #'s in some time, just stating that chief did his share of producing, and producing coondogs that did their share of producing....
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John M. Vaught
Every story I've heard about Diamond Jim from folks who knew the dog involved him being at least half Walker ...does it matter ?
Bluetickers are sure a different kind of crowd , I've personally seen more sorry Blue dogs bred based on their papers or where they came from than any other breed .... if more folks of any line or breed put more importance on the dogs they breed themselves and cull those that don't stack up then folks today wouldn't be clinging to hounds that died fifty years ago .
OK
Hammer dog trait that most improved the breed. IMHO a dog that got it's nose in the air and could run like a Walker.. That's what made those Hammer's Winners.......Hammer's II and III got the ball rolling... Interesting enough Diamond Jim dogs are the same type... As far as DJ being half Walker, I don't believe it.... Anyone who has any experience with Mountain Music Blue and Blaze blood knows they will throw off color, many generations deep.....CALL DOC HOUSEHOLDER AND ASK,,,,,,, AND GET IT FROM THE HORSES MOUTH, not what some ole boy says...... Talk to the guy who bred it and lived it.....Mr. Hammer II/ Mountain Music HIMSELF... He bred that blood so tight at times it made me squirm... BUT IT WORKED.... Looks suffered but coondogs they were.....ALSO ask him about the night Hussler and DJ competed in a cast together... It will open your eyes !!!!!!!
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Fan of the of the Bragg and Vaughn Blues !! TREE OLD HUSSLER in Memory of DOC Householder... Rest in Peace Rev. Kenneth Adkins my dear friend !! Home Will's Creek Savage Sioux-Zee!!
Yeah, I competition hunt !! All Fall and Winter long.. My Blues compete with the local coon.. My Blues win a ton !!! We use and recommend MOONSHINER LIGHTS, Peggs , Ok.
Re: Re: Dave
quote:*******John, what about trapper....is he a gr.nite. SERIOUSLY FOLKS I COULD CARE LESS. DAVE, THE ONLY TIME...EVER YOU WILL SEE ME BASH ON THE HAMMER DOGS IS WHEN MR. VAUGHT STARTS SLINGIN HIS MUD.....EVER. NOW WE ALL KNOW THERE IS PLENTY OF MUD TO BE SLUNG AND IF YOU MEN/WOMEN WANT TO TELL ME IM HUNTING A KENNEL NAME INSTEAD OF A BLOODLINE FINE AS SOME TELL ME IM REALLY HUNTING HAMMER DOGS. IF YOU LIVE UP NORTH YOUR HUNTING HAMMER OR JET IF YOU LIVE IN A SOUTHER STATE YOUR HUNTING S.R. OR UCHTMAN. HOW COME RAMBO CAN BE A LINE AND NOT S.R. VIA CHIEF, BECAUSE SOME FOLKS WILL NOT GIVE CREDIT WHERE IT IS DUE.
Originally posted by John Vaught
that explains why he was only nite champion Chief just couldn't compete makes one wonder why he reproduced doesn't it..........
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" OLD' DIAMOND JIM " LONG LIVE THE KING OF COONHOUNDS.
WARREN
WHAT HE DID WAS A LIL' SMARTER THEN MOST IMO. HE WOULD BREED HIS GOOD BITCHES AND SALE PUPS (JUST LIKE UCHTMANS, HAMMER, JET) BUT WARREN WOULD KEEP UP WITH THEM AND ALWAYS TRY HIS HARDEST TO BUY THE BEST ONE BACK. THIS IS A FACT AND OTHERS SHOULD BE DOING THE SAME AS YOU CANT TELL WHICH ONE WILL BE THE BEST TELL THEIR STARTED IN THE WOODS.....COLOR MADE HIM NO DIFF. IT WAS ALLWAYS ABAILITY FIRST AND SHOULD BE WITH EVERYONE PLANING A BREEDING. I WILL TRY TO REFRAIN FROM POSTING ON THE SUBJECTS ANYMORE AS THEY SEEM TO BE GOOD FOR ARGUMENT AND ARGUMENT ONLY.
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" OLD' DIAMOND JIM " LONG LIVE THE KING OF COONHOUNDS.
BOYS BOYS
IVE TRIED TO STAY OUT OF THIS BS BUT I CANT STAND MUCH MORE OF THIS SLANDER. THIS IS WHY THE BLUETICK BREED CONTINUES TOO SUCK HIND TIT. JEALOUSY. UNTIL ANY OF YOU PEOPLE DO HALF AS MUCH FOR THIS BREED AS EITHER OF THEASE MEN YOU NEED TOSTOP TEARING DOWN SOMEONE OR PERSONS WHO DID MORE FOR THIS BREED BEFORE BREAKFAST THAN YOU HAVE IN YOUR ENTIRE LIFE. FOR THE RECORD I HUNT S.R. HAMMER, RAMBO UTCHMAN, DROOP JR. BEFORELINEBREEDING THERE WAS A PERFECTLY GOOD TOOL CALLED THE BEST TO THE BEST. ATTACKING PEOPLE WITH ASSUMED FACKS IS NOT GOING TO HELP THIS BREED.
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Keep them BLUE and treed IL. BLUE
amen
Ed said what I was thinking just 2 min. ago.....
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Fan of the of the Bragg and Vaughn Blues !! TREE OLD HUSSLER in Memory of DOC Householder... Rest in Peace Rev. Kenneth Adkins my dear friend !! Home Will's Creek Savage Sioux-Zee!!
Yeah, I competition hunt !! All Fall and Winter long.. My Blues compete with the local coon.. My Blues win a ton !!! We use and recommend MOONSHINER LIGHTS, Peggs , Ok.
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