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Posted by HEAVY on 10-01-2003 07:01 PM:

BIG GAME dogs

I want super nose for coldtrailing, speeeeed, mouth, and enough sand to fight a bear, worry him, bite him.

Any suggestions for lines to look at? I'm not interested in Plotts.
Who's got English, Blues, B&T's or Walkers to do it up right??


Posted by Bear on 10-01-2003 07:52 PM:

If you get coonhoundblood lines check last months issue page 143.Check out the hawk dog.I have this same line and have hunted with most of the dogs in his pedigree.THEY ARE BEAR DOGS!


Posted by bns3 on 10-01-2003 08:10 PM:

Not interested in Plotts? Could be looking for a long time lol


Posted by HEAVY on 10-01-2003 09:04 PM:

There is one of you on every board, aint there?
Every color has some good. I tried the brindles. Even thought they looked cool. Put down more of them than any man should have to. Couple gooduns were good. Too many wernt.
Not what suits me at all and I dont have time to go threw them all to find a couple I like. That leaves more for you to pick from ha-ha


Posted by bns3 on 10-01-2003 09:16 PM:

HEAVY wasn't trying to ruffle your feathers.Just that what you seen from the plotts I have seen from all the other breeds.We must have been picking opposites in that regard.Anyway like I have said before color don't run and tree if it gets the job done and its colored to your liking than hunt it. I got no problem with that.Take care and good luck in your search.


Posted by HEAVY on 10-01-2003 09:37 PM:

Not rufled lol I didnt want to seem like it. I just think I got in the hipe of plotts as the biggame king and was disapointed. I think maybe to many guys were breeeding papers instead of actaul beardgs. I mean if it had a real beardog in ped. up close they would breed them even if the 2 together werent good. I did like some star mountain plotts. They had speed and fight and ok mouth. Would fight amongst themselves though if together. They didn't have enough nose for me. If I got nose in them and they would not be quarelsome in box they would be awesome.
I would trade some of that fight and sand for nose. I dont like vet bills or killed dogs. Dollins I tried not bred by him but his blood they would run but not fight. Go figure. Thanks and good hunting to you to!


Posted by Redtick on 10-01-2003 10:22 PM:

Bear Dogs

I have a litter of pups sucking right now. Their mother needs 1 more win to be a Grand Bench Champion and needs a 1st out of 3 hunts she has been entered to be a Nite Champion. More important than that, I have video tape of a littermate of hers under approximately 80 different bear over 4 seasons. On these tapes, he shows everything you mentioned. There are several times, he worked the track up and finished it when the other dogs couldn't. I am looking for more tape of him under 20+ bears again this Fall. She has another littermate that is one of the better lion dogs folks have seen in California. She has another brother that is a Grand Nite Champion in West Va.
I talked to another bear hunting buddy last night and he says the dog he got from me is the best bear dog he has ever seen, he has buddys that are lifetime bear hunters that say the same thing. I have his phone number and he hunts in alot of different states and has a ton of references you can check out. I think he said he looked at over 40 bear this Fall and had clients that harvest 5-6 bears.
You might think this is BS but I will back up everything I put here and have the video tape of the first dog I mentioned. I have bear hunters who come back for more pups every year.

__________________
My name is Dave Haugh and I approve of this message.


Posted by Gr.Nt.Ch.Plott on 10-01-2003 10:49 PM:

Plotts

I hate to break it to you Mr. Heavy, but of all the so called PLOTTS you have hunted, a very small percentage of those pups come from BEAR DOGS!!!!! You can not buy a puppy from a REAL BEAR DOG. Because a person that has the REAL STUFF does not sell pups....The pups are usually GIVEN away to hunters in the hunters hunting party.... If you dont have any Crockett, Pocahontas or Gantte blood then my friend you don't have Bear Dog Pups!!!!! The pups from the above bloodlines are not sold on a messege board or to unknown hunters, they are given to real hunters that the breeders know and trust with them.... So before you go running around here bad mouthing the ENTIRE PLOTT BREED you need to hunt with some real BEAR DOGS!!!!! As I can tell by your attitude toward the plott dog, I can tell you have never been to the Smoky Mountains of East Tennessee during Bear Season, Thats where the Real Bear Dogs are!!!!!!!!!!! And when you see a real bear dog it is usually from these lines!!!!

__________________
Sourwood Mountain Plotts
Fall Creek Falls, Tennessee
"Mountain Bred Dogs & Mountain Bred People"


Posted by Ray Stein on 10-01-2003 11:25 PM:

Easy there Jason, I think maybe you'd better check up for a minute, don't know much about his dogs right now, but I hunted with Leo Dollins for quite a few years. When his Tiger, Tiger II, Little Tiger, and quite a few more of his dogs were put on a bear, they were strictly business and some were very good bear dogs. Had big bawl mouths, excellent cold trailers, strike off the rig, fight and treed many big bears. At Plott days in Flora Illinois, Tom Telford wouldn't allow Kellys Red Buck, Haugs Little Kelly and Dollins Tiger II in the bear bay contest after the warm up, Tiger II and Jenny went at it tooth and tong.

Don't be naive to think that a dog has to be from Tennesse to be a bear dog or out of the bloodlines that you hunt and promote, I know some of the guys that hunt bloodlines that you hunt and some that hunt different bloodlines and some have good bear dogs and some don't. How many Dollins bred dogs have you hunted with and seen go? I've hunted with some out of the strains you mentioned and its not all great, I have a Gante bred female and shes a goodun.

At Jay Dorseys Big game roundup I had a few guys that breed up some of those dogs inquire about our dogs and when I asked why they needed a ingredient they said they'd lost the nose and or grit in there dogs. One of the nicest young Plott dogs I've ever hunted with had every bloodline and breeders dogs in his pedigree other than Crocketts blood, came from Tennessee and came from some guys that don't sell dogs just breed em up to hunt. And I beleive that Gene Walker sells a whole bunch of puppies.

Heavy whats your real name if you don't mind me asking?

__________________
Pzazz!


Posted by pete on 10-02-2003 01:07 AM:

heavy . ive been bear huntin a little. treed three last week. one was 500 lbs another was 350. these bear were treed not shot crossing the rd.also got out run once and whipped by a small bear. running in clearcut ,alder swamps and spruce fir thickets.. only allowed 4 dogs in maine . a few of my dogs may turn out to be close to what your describing... i can count on my fingers the dogs ive seen that were what your talking about... had 3 guys who are maine guides and hunt bear for a living order a pup. last week. i take that as a pretty high compliment. wont have any till april -may anyway.. i realy dont know if theres any lines that produce a huge % of perfect bear dogs.. so far i havent seen a perfect bear dog. some of best bear dogs ive owned in the past have sired a lot of junk.. best crosses have produced a few dogs that will tree most bear and dont spend half their life at the vets.. most dogs ive had in recent years will make great coldtrailers and rig dogs.. it takes some workto develop a coldtrailer and most never give them a chance.. my rig dog is two years old , has been striking and cold trailing since a pup. ive been breeding walkers for 18years just for bear dogs.. i think that im getting better dogs every year. big improvement in nose and speed. still looking for that perfect dog. if anybody knows of any line producing a big % of great beardogs please let me know. heavy what do you know about huff walkers? ive heard alot good about some of them. i have a new pup from nelson cole in maine, hes made his living twenty years hunting bear and bobcat..ive seen some great dogs from that line.. im getting a pup this weekend thats 1/4 huff bred . id guess the best beardog on the coast of north carolina may not be the best in swamps of michigan. i rate speed and nose very high on what a bear dog needs. i dont tolerate cowards but i dont want that dog that gets hurt all the time either. pete


Posted by Gr.Nt.Ch.Plott on 10-02-2003 01:56 AM:

Ray

I was not implying that just because a dog is not from The Smoky Mountains (The original home to the plott dog) that it is not a "BEAR DOG" Heavy is from MI. and he said he has was not pleased with the plotts up there....I was just stating that if wants to see some plotts that are shooo nuff Bear dogs to head on down south....As far as the puppies being sold, I have never, I repeat never had to pay a dime for a puppy, As I am a hunter and the people who know me know that it will be put in the woods if I get one...Thats what I was refering to about puppies being sold, yes Mr. Walker sells quiet a few pups but he also gives quite a few away to people that he knows will do them justice....80% of people who go buy these puppies dont give them a chance like they should have.....Now on to Mr. Dollins' dogs, I have never not one time even been to the woods with a Dollins bred hound...so I can not say they are or that they are not bear dogs, I don't know, but all I do know is that the Smoky Mountains of East Tennessee have the greatest concertration of Plott Bear Dogs in the World, I have seen Weems, Haug, Ponderosa, Shamrock,Twin Branch, White Hollow, Cascade....and on and on.. I have seen some good and bad ones in all bloodlines, but the majority of good hounds I have seen and thats alot are Pocahontas, Crockett, Allison, Gantte & Cascade bred dogs...Not meaning to step on anyones toes or point out anyone or any line of dogs just stating my personal views on Bear Dogs. I saw about 20 dogs run 3 different tracks this weekend and saw some nice work and seen some that would never be tied up at my house...lol

__________________
Sourwood Mountain Plotts
Fall Creek Falls, Tennessee
"Mountain Bred Dogs & Mountain Bred People"


Posted by Ray Stein on 10-02-2003 02:34 AM:

Jason, I hear ya loud and clear, weren't the original Plott dogs from North Carolina? As you stated 80 % of the dogs aren't given a real chance, regardless of wether their from Michigan or Tennessee. I sure hope when and if you get to go out west and hunt with people like Pete Sherwood, Van Johnson or Cecil Ralston or many others that your not real surprised to see mixed packs that will make you take notice. The late Roger Snidow, had some Plotts that had alot of grit and could get with it and tree alot of bear, out of bear dog Plotts all kinds of bloodlines. Alot of those guys come up to Michigan and then some won't run in those swamps as it takes a mighty good dog to run through those hills and valleys and then swim after a bear across a mile of beaver pond and continue on. Just trying to point out there are alot of good bear hounds, some Plotts some other breeds, like you I like my Plotts, but I'm also not bloodline blind anymore. Jason, I like to give my pups away at times too, as anyone can see your full of enthusiam and hunt alot, these guys are smart to give you pups, you hunt them and promote your dogs. Best of Luck always, but no matter what you hear about Leo, he at one time had some good tuff bear dogs, I could show you pictures of Big bear in Michigan, Canada, Colorado, Idaho and Montana, and I'm sure hes killed some in North Carolina, and Florida.

The Huff bred dogs are very good Bear dogs and any one whom chooses to hunt one on Big game has a good chance to have a keeper. I'd like to also say that regardless of Bloodline or breed if a dog isn't given a opportunity to perform and isn't trained properly you, I or anyone could go through alot of dogs before we lucked out and got a decent one. I'd have to know the exact breeding of Heavy's Dollins bred dog as well as whom it came from before I'd venture a opinion.

__________________
Pzazz!


Posted by Ray Stein on 10-02-2003 02:38 AM:

Heavy, you sound like a hard bear hunter, how long have you been into hounds and hunting? And how many dogs have you owned these last say 3-4 years? Maybe we can help in some way.

__________________
Pzazz!


Posted by Bobby on 10-02-2003 03:18 AM:

I really like english dogs. I think they are well balanced hounds. I coon hunt and bear hunt the same line of english dogs. I like dogs with Dickey's Old Sandy or Tenbrooks Blue Queen which are both out of Beshears Blue Boy 2. I've seen dogs out of these dogs and grandpups of these dogs cross good on swamprooster dogs which also go back to Tenbrooks Blue Queen. The best I ever saw was a female out of Captain Kool and the Speckeled Bird and like you guys were saying you cant buy a pup out of her and very few are given to hunting buddies. There are some good young english bear dogs around with this same blood line that a man might be able to buy but they want be cheap.Damen Cooper in Kentucky has a GRNITECH Coon dog right out of The Speckeled Bird that if crossed on a good female with as much of Old Sandy or Blue Queen as you could get probably would make good bear dogs. The guy on here called redtick, I'm pretty sure he has alot of Old Sandy in his blood line and he says alot of people bear hunt his line of dogs.I have a GRNITECH male dog that is a great grandpup on top and bottom to Old Sandy that I plan to breed to my GRCH NITECH female that is a heck of a coon dog and bear dog If you might be interested in some pups later.
If you want some nice young dogs I can give you plenty of references from Tennessee to the coast of N. carolina and up north all the way to canada on the english dogs we hunt.
Thanks, and God Bless


Posted by throwback on 10-02-2003 04:12 AM:

"I'm not interested in Plotts."

I've seen a lot of other breeds that were good big game dogs---------Deer dogs!


throwback


Posted by Redtick on 10-02-2003 01:02 PM:

I will say this, if you get an Old Sandy bred English, chances are the dog will not run deer. I have seen it turn out this way alot of times and I have alot of references. These pups I have sucking now have as much of Old Sandy as can be found anywhere today.
As for Plotts, my friend who has the Engish that was under all of the bear I mentioned, also has a top Plott he hunts. Also, no one has mentioned my friend, Everet Weems. Alot of Plott folks have Everet's bloodlines in their dogs and I know he has sold some Plotts for the highest prices. I think he sold a Plott to a Japanese for $40,000 one time. I think Everet may still be raising a litter every now and then.
My friend won some kind of bay contest with his Plott this year, the English placed 3rd (with mostly Plott hunters judging). There were alot of dogs entered. I have been to a number of bay contests where Tom Telford had his bear but not lately.
Bobby, I put alot of Old Sandy and Blue Queen in my dogs but I go through Raffle's Billie Jo instead of the dog you mentioned for the Blue Queen blood. I have another litter of pups that carry this bloodline with the sire being a double grandson of Old Sandy's.

__________________
My name is Dave Haugh and I approve of this message.


Posted by C.P. Richardson on 10-02-2003 01:21 PM:

Heavy

Email me - I may have what you need..... ready to go and the price will be right. I am not going to express any thoughts on here for someone to bash just because they may not like a certain breed. Bottom line is good and bad in all breeds it is just your preference that should matter.


Posted by Ray Stein on 10-02-2003 01:41 PM:

Dave, what qualities do you feel are important in your Bear hounds?

__________________
Pzazz!


Posted by PWC on 10-02-2003 02:22 PM:

Bear Dogs...

Well here in the Great Smoky Mountains of WESTERN NORTH CAROLINA (the actual home of the Plott hound) ROFL...(just pickin' Gr Nt Ch Plott-- one side of the hill ain't much different from the other, is it?)

Lot's of the local bear hunters use the following bloodlines and breeds.

1)Plotts.... any and all strains of Plotts are used. At least half of the big game plotts here are grade dogs.

2) Walkers... a very popular mix of Walker is to take Sackett, Yadkin River, or "Stylish" bred dogs crossed into heavy Lipper blood. In fact they are overtaking (if they haven't done so already) the Plotts in popularity as bear and hog dogs. Very fast and crazy gritty.

3) Redbones... you'll see several Machine Gun Jack bred red dogs around as his owner is a local fellow from Franklin, NC (I think). But you'll see some red dogs around in the big game packs.

4) English... You'll see several Hard Time or Neuse River bred English dogs on occaision.

5) Mtn Cur... mostly Kemmer bred. You'll see a few of these around

I don't really see many black or blue dogs in the big game packs. I know of one blue dog that is a mix of Uchtman, Brush Creek, and Northern Blue that is doing good as a start dog, and one of my B&T's (C&S Smokey bred) will run a bear like he's tied to it and has a good cold nose to go along with it, but they are just not the popular picks around here for big game, although both crossed with walkers or plotts are a popular grade dog.

That's what I see around here. Plotts and Walkers are the BIG majority.


Posted by G8R on 10-02-2003 02:40 PM:

Re: Plotts

quote:
Originally posted by Gr.Nt.Ch.Plott
I hate to break it to you Mr. Heavy, but of all the so called PLOTTS you have hunted, a very small percentage of those pups come from BEAR DOGS!!!!! You can not buy a puppy from a REAL BEAR DOG. Because a person that has the REAL STUFF does not sell pups....The pups are usually GIVEN away to hunters in the hunters hunting party.... If you dont have any Crockett, Pocahontas or Gantte blood then my friend you don't have Bear Dog Pups!!!!! The pups from the above bloodlines are not sold on a messege board or to unknown hunters, they are given to real hunters that the breeders know and trust with them.... So before you go running around here bad mouthing the ENTIRE PLOTT BREED you need to hunt with some real BEAR DOGS!!!!! As I can tell by your attitude toward the plott dog, I can tell you have never been to the Smoky Mountains of East Tennessee during Bear Season, Thats where the Real Bear Dogs are!!!!!!!!!!! And when you see a real bear dog it is usually from these lines!!!!


Posted by Samhain on 10-02-2003 02:42 PM:

Redtick

Are you going to making a new bear hunting video?


Posted by G8R on 10-02-2003 02:48 PM:

Re: Re: Plotts

quote:
Originally posted by G8R




Sorry. Hit the button too fast LOL

You are assuming a lot there, aren't ya? You don't where he got those dogs or what they were out of. He acknowledged some good ones. You have no idea what he likes and thinks it takes to be a bear dog. He just stated he tried some and they don't suit him, even though some are good. I don't think he bashed the entire Plott breed at all. He just was stating he wasn't interested, prolly so he didn't get all this Plott stuff hijacking his thread ROFL


I can't help ya Heavy - I like Walkers, my buddy likes B&T's and we feed a blue now and then all for coonhuntin!


Posted by Redtick on 10-02-2003 04:07 PM:

Samhain

One of my bear hunting buddies will send me a new bear hunting tape later on this winter when he gets it ready. He has sent me 3 or 4 years of bear hunting videos already. He, like me, is not a professional but the tapes sure show alot of bears up a tree. I have a copy machine and can put any variation of tapes together to suit who my tapes will go to. My tape are usually around 6 hours long. So, if a bear hunter wants a tape, I will put the bear hunting videos on the tape. If a coonhunter orders a tape, I usually put most of my latest coonhunting tapes on with maybe an hour's worth of bear hunting. Everyone likes the bear hunting videos, even if they are not a bear hunter.

__________________
My name is Dave Haugh and I approve of this message.


Posted by Samhain on 10-02-2003 08:04 PM:

Thanks Redtick,i have the tape with the coonhunting with the bears at the end,was looking for some more bear action.


Posted by Blackdog on 10-02-2003 11:50 PM:

Ray

Hey dont forget That Bullet dog. I have some pups out him that will flat go at it..

One female I have out of Alan's female and Bullet is doing real fine. So much so That I bred her mother to Bullet.

Those pups are running a track now and will bay a coon hard at 5 months old.

Alan said that some of his pups out his litter were doing well out west as well.


Jesse


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