UKC Forums - Yet another "how to score"?

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Posted by truly on 06-10-2012 11:35 AM:

Yet another "how to score"?

If a cast sends handler/handlers to a split tree and after scoring first tree judge is walking towards the next tree that needs to be scored, what happens if he can not hear dog/dogs on that split tree when he gets to where he should be able to? Can a judge run a 2 minute clock on dogs that probably have been handled, but are not barking? I know a lot of folks like to hush their dogs at a tree once they are handled, on hot nights especially, but if the judge can't hear dogs how does he know where to go? Should he run the 2 and then the 8? What if a handler has gone to that tree and handled the judges dog for him?

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Posted by patches9452 on 06-10-2012 01:12 PM:

i dont know what you do if you cant find the dog because its quite but dont think you can run anything on it once its handeled...maybe try hollaring if no other dogs or tracking or not handeled.... i had something similar happen to me where i went and handeled my dog and then was gonna meet them at their tree.... when i got mine handeled they couldnt be heard.... walked that way for close to an hour.... finally just decided to get my dog and go to the truck(withdrew) come to find out they had been doing the same thing looking for me... they finally give up and came to the truck also..... would like to see the answer to this tho

Posted by jculler8 on 06-10-2012 01:28 PM:

Re: Yet another "how to score"?

quote:
Originally posted by truly
If a cast sends handler/handlers to a split tree and after scoring first tree judge is walking towards the next tree that needs to be scored, what happens if he can not hear dog/dogs on that split tree when he gets to where he should be able to? Can a judge run a 2 minute clock on dogs that probably have been handled, but are not barking? I know a lot of folks like to hush their dogs at a tree once they are handled, on hot nights especially, but if the judge can't hear dogs how does he know where to go? Should he run the 2 and then the 8? What if a handler has gone to that tree and handled the judges dog for him?

ALL 4 CAST MEMBERS, OR EVERYONE ON THE CAST SHOULD BE SCORING TREES.

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Posted by patches9452 on 06-10-2012 02:24 PM:

Re: Re: Yet another "how to score"?

quote:
Originally posted by jculler8
ALL 4 CAST MEMBERS, OR EVERYONE ON THE CAST SHOULD BE SCORING TREES.

that is true but if all dogs are treed and you go to handle yours and the others shut up.... how you gonna find them if they are very far a part

Posted by groworg1 on 06-10-2012 03:12 PM:

your not scoring a tree without me my dog will stay untill we get there ! so lets go score your tree and then we'll go score mine thats how i handle this !

Posted by patches9452 on 06-10-2012 03:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by groworg1
your not scoring a tree without me my dog will stay untill we get there ! so lets go score your tree and then we'll go score mine thats how i handle this !

thats all good.... as long as you are who we draw.... what about when we draw someone that wants to go handle theirs or i want to go handle mine.... what then.... when all dogs are treed you have the right to go handle them and im going to mine... others can do as they please

Posted by JiM on 06-10-2012 03:25 PM:

Re: Yet another "how to score"?

quote:
Originally posted by truly
If a cast sends handler/handlers to a split tree and after scoring first tree judge is walking towards the next tree that needs to be scored, what happens if he can not hear dog/dogs on that split tree when he gets to where he should be able to? Can a judge run a 2 minute clock on dogs that probably have been handled, but are not barking? I know a lot of folks like to hush their dogs at a tree once they are handled, on hot nights especially, but if the judge can't hear dogs how does he know where to go? Should he run the 2 and then the 8? What if a handler has gone to that tree and handled the judges dog for him?

No, you cannot run the 2 on a dog that is handled. In this situation, if you just have one judge and the other handler goes to the tree alone, all you can do is rely upon his basic honesty to run the 2 on his dog if it shuts up before it gets handled. Unless it was just plain obvious that the dog shutup before the handler could have possibly got to it but even then, as the judge, you would have to be able to judge that dog while you are walking to the other dogs. Not likely.

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 06-10-2012 03:27 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by patches9452
thats all good.... as long as you are who we draw.... what about when we draw someone that wants to go handle theirs or i want to go handle mine.... what then.... when all dogs are treed you have the right to go handle them and im going to mine... others can do as they please

Exactly right. Joe if you want to let me walk 5 or 6 hundred yards to go handle my dog and come all the way back to score the tree im fine with it but the cast is going to be waiting a while. Im not letting my dog tree for 15 or 20 or who knows how many minutes why a guy shines his tree for 10 minutes. Remember it onky takes a majority to score any given tree.

If a dog shuts up it cant be minused in any situation once its handled. However if the handler isnt smart enough to realize he needs to show the cast where his dog is treed at then he deserves minus however you can apply it

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Posted by groworg1 on 06-10-2012 04:48 PM:

i have walked away from my dog treeing many times just so you can hear yours it's called sportsmanship if he don't stay or the 2 gets him so be it i will help you score your tree i have found the coon many times when its against my best interest to do so again its call sportsmanship but my dog will stay until i get there 5 minutes or all night ! hoosier man 1 your a poor sport your reply says it all ! if you helped him find his coon in 2 minutes your dog wouldn't be waiting a extra 8 !

Posted by truly on 06-10-2012 05:43 PM:

Re: Re: Yet another "how to score"?

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
No, you cannot run the 2 on a dog that is handled. In this situation, if you just have one judge and the other handler goes to the tree alone, all you can do is rely upon his basic honesty to run the 2 on his dog if it shuts up before it gets handled. Unless it was just plain obvious that the dog shutup before the handler could have possibly got to it but even then, as the judge, you would have to be able to judge that dog while you are walking to the other dogs. Not likely.

I think maybe we should get an official UKC statement on this. How long as a judge do you spend looking for a dog that is not barking? One hour? When you get back to the spot where you could easily hear the dog that had been declared treed, if it is not barking, and you can't start a 2 on it, should you start the hour? What if another dog is on track? Obviously you could cut loose to it, but if it gets treed in the meantime, while you are wandering around the woods for an hour looking for a dog that is not barking, should you leave and go score the dog that is?
IMO, no matter what UKC's policy is, it seems completely unreasonable to put a cast in a situation where they are walking around a woods looking for a dog not barking. Seems that to simplify things good policy would state that the two can be applied until the judge arrives.
It can be hard enough to get to a dog that is barking, finding ways across streams, wet holes, thickets, etc. With your Garmin turned off how do you try to go in a straight line towards where the dog was treed?
How do you know the dog/dogs are handled?

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Posted by JiM on 06-10-2012 06:32 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Yet another "how to score"?

quote:
Originally posted by truly
I think maybe we should get an official UKC statement on this. How long as a judge do you spend looking for a dog that is not barking? One hour? When you get back to the spot where you could easily hear the dog that had been declared treed, if it is not barking, and you can't start a 2 on it, should you start the hour? What if another dog is on track? Obviously you could cut loose to it, but if it gets treed in the meantime, while you are wandering around the woods for an hour looking for a dog that is not barking, should you leave and go score the dog that is?
IMO, no matter what UKC's policy is, it seems completely unreasonable to put a cast in a situation where they are walking around a woods looking for a dog not barking. Seems that to simplify things good policy would state that the two can be applied until the judge arrives.
It can be hard enough to get to a dog that is barking, finding ways across streams, wet holes, thickets, etc. With your Garmin turned off how do you try to go in a straight line towards where the dog was treed?
How do you know the dog/dogs are handled?

Well, you got me there. Never had it happen, never actually heard of it happening and don't know what you should do if it does happen. But I do know for sure that you cannot run the 2 on a dog that is handled and I am very sure you know that too.
You have to score that dog that was treed and handled. You have to scored it in the order it was treed. And you can't run the hour on that dog, there is no rule to support that. What do you do? Look for that dog tlll you find it.

Posted by Jon Millwood on 06-10-2012 06:37 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Yet another "how to score"?

quote:
Originally posted by truly
I think maybe we should get an official UKC statement on this. How long as a judge do you spend looking for a dog that is not barking? One hour? When you get back to the spot where you could easily hear the dog that had been declared treed, if it is not barking, and you can't start a 2 on it, should you start the hour? What if another dog is on track? Obviously you could cut loose to it, but if it gets treed in the meantime, while you are wandering around the woods for an hour looking for a dog that is not barking, should you leave and go score the dog that is?
IMO, no matter what UKC's policy is, it seems completely unreasonable to put a cast in a situation where they are walking around a woods looking for a dog not barking. Seems that to simplify things good policy would state that the two can be applied until the judge arrives.
It can be hard enough to get to a dog that is barking, finding ways across streams, wet holes, thickets, etc. With your Garmin turned off how do you try to go in a straight line towards where the dog was treed?
How do you know the dog/dogs are handled?

Thats why the cast stays together and nobody goes to handle a dog without the judge..

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Posted by max destruction on 06-10-2012 06:56 PM:

You aint runnin the 2 on me,not to hard for 3 guys to say we couldnt hear him!

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 06-10-2012 06:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by groworg1
i have walked away from my dog treeing many times just so you can hear yours it's called sportsmanship if he don't stay or the 2 gets him so be it i will help you score your tree i have found the coon many times when its against my best interest to do so again its call sportsmanship but my dog will stay until i get there 5 minutes or all night ! hoosier man 1 your a poor sport your reply says it all ! if you helped him find his coon in 2 minutes your dog wouldn't be waiting a extra 8 !

You know bud I don't find it amusing when your calling me a poor sport for wanting to go handle my dog when its 75 to 80 degrees at night. The rule clearly allows split treed dogs to be handled. To hell with waiting 10, 15, 20 minutes. It says dogs to be treed 5 minutes and be at the tree if at all possible. If 6 eyes can't find the coon then there's a very small chance I will. Sportsmanship in this situation tells me to say hey bud go handle that dog and come back into help us score the tree. And if the dogs far away split I will say handle your dog and wait for us to come score your tree. That my friend is following the rules exactly. Trying to tell someone they can't handle their dog that is lit treed is poor sportsmanship all around.

Posted by groworg1 on 06-10-2012 07:09 PM:

i'm not telling you you can't handle your dog ! i'll go with you mine will stay deal with it you statement said not waiting ten minutes for guy to search his tree says it all

Posted by truly on 06-10-2012 07:34 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Yet another "how to score"?

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Well, you got me there. Never had it happen, never actually heard of it happening and don't know what you should do if it does happen. But I do know for sure that you cannot run the 2 on a dog that is handled and I am very sure you know that too.
You have to score that dog that was treed and handled. You have to scored it in the order it was treed. And you can't run the hour on that dog, there is no rule to support that. What do you do? Look for that dog tlll you find it.

I never had it happen before either. When a cast splits up to handle a lot of unexpected things can happen. I guess the question maybe comes down to when a dog is considered "handled". It would be helpful if UKC did not consider a dog handled until the judge actually verified it at the tree, whether the handler had put it on a leash already. I just see a serious problem coming up when there is nothing that can be done about a dog declared treed and thought to be handled and it is not barking. We were fortunate enough last night that we had a good spot to get back to and get our bearings. But again, what if you are in a huge woods with no trails. Seriously, is the cast obligated to wander around all night looking for a dog that is not barking?

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Posted by Randy Howard on 06-10-2012 07:37 PM:

Rules say you can handle spilt go to your dog, I have done it a few times but will see to it to let him bark enough once in awhile so others can get to me to score, would not just sit quiet in the dark and they can't find me? I Have quieted mine down when it's hot even give him a drink out of my water bottle but feel they must bark so others can find you, just can't see anyone just sittin in the dark quiet and expect others to find em LOL, just? Like Max said also maybe selective hearing also couldn't find him, but doubt that any 3 would do that to a handler, or at least I wouldn't! plus i don't solely depend on my Garmin to navigate I still use a compass,have to when guiding and hunting?

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Posted by truly on 06-10-2012 07:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by max destruction
You aint runnin the 2 on me,not to hard for 3 guys to say we couldnt hear him!

I am not talking about a situation where people are trying to cheat each other. If three guys are willing to claim they couldn't hear a dog [that is clearly barking] then they are probably also willing to not see a coon. So in that case you are probably screwed anyway. I am talking about a situation where all cast members acting in good faith split to handle dogs and a portion of the cast can not regroup because dogs declared treed are no longer barking. If we can't put a two [and even the hour] on them then what do you do? In a situation where the dog that we need to get to is up to a mile away and just known to be "off in that direction", how much walking do you do to try find the silent dog?
A few weeks at your club I had a similar situation where I had to leave three cast members and their dogs to go handle my dog. She treed over 40 minutes til I got to her. The rest of the cast was able to drive closer and got to the tree within 20 minutes of when I did. But if my dog hushed as they were on their way in? We were in big country, it seems to me like it would have been entirely unreasonable of me to expect cast to wander up and down the river bottom looking for my silent "handled" dog.

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 06-10-2012 08:02 PM:

I don't think its very common truly. Like I said if a guy can't get his dog. to bark here and there once its handled then somethings seriously wrong. My Mouse female often hushes when I handle her split but you can bet I make sure she barks once I hear the others hush. Then I know they are done scoring the tree and will be headed my way.

Posted by truly on 06-10-2012 09:04 PM:

Hoosier, yes you are right, very uncommon. Never seen it in 20 years. Don't know how [or why] they got 3 dogs to hush at a tree.
Randy- not a matter of selective hearing. The judges dog was one of them that had been handled at that split tree [by other handlers given permission to do so, so that judge could come and score my tree.]

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Posted by patches9452 on 06-10-2012 10:29 PM:

i have only had it happen one time in over 20 years but it was a nightmare the night it happened.... i finally just took it upon myself and went to the truck and waited them out.... thank goodness they didnt look for me near as long as i looked for them.... this was a case where 2 dogs were treed in opposite directions and all you could do to hear either one.... only 2 dogs treed and the other 2 leash locked.... the judge and the other 2 went to score thier tree and then were gonna come to mine.... this was before the ruling that if it took more than 15 minutes to get to a tree you could call timeout but i dont think it would have come into play except for the return trip for them to my tree... if in the case in this question all dogs were treed after walking 15 minutes timeout should have been called until dog was found then time in called and tree shined.... that way you dont burn all the hunt time looking for a treed dog not barking

Posted by T Felderman on 06-11-2012 12:02 AM:

I dont think you can run the 2.

If my dog is split a ways off i just let it tree. If it will stay 5 min it should stay 25 min.

Posted by groworg1 on 06-11-2012 12:09 AM:

t felderman never met you but i agree that is the sportsman thing to do thats how real coonhunters behave instead of me me me and rule rule rule and win at any cost !

Posted by john Duemmer on 06-11-2012 01:09 AM:

Seems that the garmins have created a generation of hunters that cant take a reading on a compass. For this to be a problem you would need acombination of rare things to happen, 1 a dog that wont bark after being handled and 2 being split so far that you cant guess close enough to find a hunters light.

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Posted by Bill(Chew) on 06-11-2012 01:55 AM:

Haven't ya'll ever heard of Hollering?

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