UKC Forums - nite ch hunt ?

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Posted by ody22222222222 on 04-15-2012 07:15 PM:

nite ch hunt ?

One dog trees off game the other dog checks the tree but never barks and is handed at the tree is the dog that did not bark scrathed too?

Posted by GA DAWG on 04-15-2012 07:27 PM:

Did the dog come in after the cast or was it there when cast arrived?

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Posted by ody22222222222 on 04-15-2012 07:32 PM:

There when we got there

Posted by GA DAWG on 04-15-2012 07:37 PM:

Scratched.

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Posted by Rip on 04-15-2012 07:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
Scratched.

What are you basing a scratch on, just because it was there?

It has to run or molest the off game.

The post just looks like the dog came in and didn't molest the off game, never opened etc.

That wouldn't be a scratch.

Now if it ran the track with him and was at the tree then you got something because the dog molested the off game.

But just for bein there then no I don't think you could scratch on that. Otherwise you would scratch every NTCh that went through a pasture full of cows.

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Posted by BlueTickNC on 04-15-2012 07:56 PM:

I DONT SEE HOW THE DOG ISNT SCRATCHED IT IS AT THE TREE COMES IN THE TREE WHATEVER IT HAS ALL THE CHANCE IN THE WORLD TO GO ON AND TREE A COON!!!!!

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Posted by Rip on 04-15-2012 08:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BlueTickNC
I DONT SEE HOW THE DOG ISNT SCRATCHED IT IS AT THE TREE COMES IN THE TREE WHATEVER IT HAS ALL THE CHANCE IN THE WORLD TO GO ON AND TREE A COON!!!!!

Yes but you have to follow the rules and the rules state the dog is scratched for running, treeing or molesting off game.

If the post is right and he was just there in the area then he isn't scratched any more than a dog that goes through a pasture of cows is scratched.

That's the problem with it. There is no description of the dog ever doing anything remotely like messing with/molesting the off game so you wouldn't have any legal means to scratch. There is a reason registered dogs have to be "at the tree TREEING" to get assigned minus points and it would be the same for NtCh and scratching. The dog would have to do something considered molesting the game to be scratched.

Course you gotta be there to judge anything accurately but I don't see how you can scratch a dog for just being in an area especially when the rules spell it out specifically.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 04-15-2012 08:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
What are you basing a scratch on, just because it was there?

It has to run or molest the off game.

The post just looks like the dog came in and didn't molest the off game, never opened etc.

That wouldn't be a scratch.

Now if it ran the track with him and was at the tree then you got something because the dog molested the off game.

But just for bein there then no I don't think you could scratch on that. Otherwise you would scratch every NTCh that went through a pasture full of cows.

It was there and handled at the tree. Should have went on. They can question it and we can go back. What would you have done if a coon was up there rip? I figure the dog got scratched or we wouldn't be seeing this question

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Posted by patches9452 on 04-15-2012 08:59 PM:

i got scratched at the zones this year.... we were 20 ft from a dog treed when i recast the dog treed then pulls a skunk out of a bank and goes to fighting it.... my dog whirls runs in to see what it is and turns and is coming back dowwn the ditch when the judge catches it and i have a very long ride home.... he never barked at it or touched it and wasnt hanging around was just caught in the wrong place at the wrong time

Posted by walker1978 on 04-15-2012 09:51 PM:

your dog needs to tree to get tree points doesnt it, so if my dog is standing at a tree with a coon in it does it get tree points. now i mean just standing there not barking or messing with the the coon. i think if you get scratched for your dog being a the tree when a possom is there not doing anything then you should get points for it being there like that with a coon in it. jmo

Posted by CLJohnson on 04-15-2012 09:57 PM:

If the dog opens he is scratched, that simple, something came up like this this weekend and as far as wondering if the dog was treeing/molesting off game it goes to the judges best decision, words direct from a MOH this weekend.

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Posted by Rip on 04-15-2012 10:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
It was there and handled at the tree. Should have went on. They can question it and we can go back. What would you have done if a coon was up there rip? I figure the dog got scratched or we wouldn't be seeing this question

Yes, all dogs at the tree must be handled, you don't have the option. If the dog is around the tree when you are you have to leash him up by the rules.

If it were a registered cast you could NOT assign points and minus that dog.

That's the point. The dog didn't do ANYTHING to be considered molesting off game so there is no way you can scratch him.

There has to be a rules violation to scratch, and the rule is very clear he has to molest the off game in order to be scratched. If he doesn't then he can't be scratched.

Just like you can't minus a dog for quitting a track unless it comes in to the cast, you can't scratch a NTCH for being in the vicinity of off game. It has to do something to deserve the scratch (that's also why you can't scratch one for smelling like a skunk, when Todd wrote that he said you don't know if the dog molested the skunk to get sprayed or just got close to it and got sprayed). No difference in this instance, just because he was in the area isn't the same as molesting the off game.

Now there may be more to the story, but you can't just scratch a dog for being in an area. If so people would turn dogs out in a field full of cows and scratch them as they go through.

They have to mess with the off game to legally be scratched.

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Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 04-15-2012 10:14 PM:

Molesting is the word in the rule that would cover this. Doesn't mean the dog had to bark. Molesting could mean running without opening its mouth. The judge is and has to assume the dog was there with those intentions. Alot of times it is wrong place at wrong time. Sounds harsh but if the dog wasn't leaving dodge and was just hanging out then he is basically guilty by association.

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Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 04-15-2012 10:17 PM:

Hey Ody give me a call. Haven't heard from you in a while.

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Posted by Rip on 04-15-2012 10:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by nccoonhunter197
Molesting is the word in the rule that would cover this. Doesn't mean the dog had to bark. Molesting could mean running without opening its mouth. The judge is and has to assume the dog was there with those intentions. Alot of times it is wrong place at wrong time. Sounds harsh but if the dog wasn't leaving dodge and was just hanging out then he is basically guilty by association.

Nope, way off base. Molesting is an action. Not just "being there". Molesting means the dog has to DO something to show it is after the off game. You can't make assumptions. I agree there may be more to the story that the judge saw, but just by what is posted the dog can't legally be scratched.

Just like a dog smelling like a skunk isn't assumed to be molesting the skunk. You know if UKC says you can't scratch a dog for coming back smelling like a skunk because you would be assuming the dog did something that may or may not have happened they aren't going to assume that seeing a dog, that hasn't barked or indicated any interest mind you, in the vicinity of off game would be scratched.

You can't just go to scratching dogs "because I want to" because scratching a dog that is just "there" is the exact same thing. It hasn't broken a rule because to molest is an active word. It has to activly do something. Not just "be there".

Otherwise you would have people scratching dogs if they can convince the cast they saw a squirrell in a tree the dog winning the cast just ran past.

Dog has to do something to earn the scratch, not just because somebody wants to scratch it.

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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 04-15-2012 10:24 PM:

Re: nite ch hunt ?

quote:
Originally posted by ody22222222222
One dog trees off game the other dog checks the tree but never barks and is handed at the tree is the dog that did not bark scrathed too?

i dont know no other way he can tree on it unless he checks it
do you?

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Posted by JiM on 04-15-2012 10:26 PM:

Pages 66 & 67 in the Advisor cover this question. Kellam describes "molesting" as fighting or biting, "running" as chasing or trailing, open or silent and "treeing" as barking up a tree, not mearly standing under one.

Like it or not, the dog described in this post cannot be scratched. As usual, Rip is dead on.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 04-15-2012 10:27 PM:

I can tell if ones treeing or molesting or molested that possum..Bye bye. We can always see what the MOH has to say. I got a 50/50 chance at the scratch sticking

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Posted by Rip on 04-15-2012 10:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
I can tell if ones treeing or molesting or molested that possum..Bye bye. We can always see what the MOH has to say. I got a 50/50 chance at the scratch sticking

Not if the MOH goes by the rules, then you would have a zero chance LOL.

As a matter of fact the rest of the cast may just know the rules and if honest vote to overturn you

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Posted by GA DAWG on 04-15-2012 11:27 PM:

Yeah. I doubt that Rip.

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Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 04-16-2012 03:35 AM:

If just being there doesn't constitute a scratch then you would have to see a dog run a deer before you can scratch it and we all know that is not the way the rule reads. It is the judges decision. Just as in this case the judge thought it constituted a scratch. I know the guy who asked the question and he knows the rules as good as anybody.

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Posted by Rip on 04-16-2012 03:37 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
Yeah. I doubt that Rip.

I was just jokin with you but yeah, you are probably right. Would be tough to get two other people to vote against scratching the opposition no matter what the situation now days.

It's much more common to have someone lobbying the judge to minus or scratch every dog but theirs. Dog X struck handler Y says "judge that dogs babblin" then Dog X tree and handler Y say "judge that dogs movin" just as soon as they hear the word "tree" come out of someones mouth they start cryin to have that dog minused.

Thats not what hunts are supposed to be.

If the dogs movin then of course minus it, but it's not supposed to be whatever you can talk everyone else into going with whether it be minusin a treed dog for "movin" that didn't move or scratching a dog for bein in the area of another dog that treed off game even though it wasn't molesting that off game, seeing coon that don't exist when their dog is there or minusing a legitimate leafy tree/den because they didn't see a coon when their dog wasn't there. That's what alot of handlers now think they are supposed to do though.

If the origional post is correct it looks like a judge had to scratch his own dog for treein off game, got ticked off and scratched the other one out of jealousy even though it had done nothing to deserve the scratch.

Course we only heard one side of it, might be completely different in reality.

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Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 04-16-2012 03:39 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Pages 66 & 67 in the Advisor cover this question. Kellam describes "molesting" as fighting or biting, "running" as chasing or trailing, open or silent and "treeing" as barking up a tree, not mearly standing under one.

Like it or not, the dog described in this post cannot be scratched. As usual, Rip is dead on.

Exactly my point. The dog doesn't have to open its mouth to be considered "molesting" off game. I had a dog that would trail a possum and then lie on an empty tree. He was still molesting off game even though he didn't tree them.

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Posted by Rip on 04-16-2012 03:41 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by nccoonhunter197
If just being there doesn't constitute a scratch then you would have to see a dog run a deer before you can scratch it and we all know that is not the way the rule reads. It is the judges decision. Just as in this case the judge thought it constituted a scratch. I know the guy who asked the question and he knows the rules as good as anybody.

Sorry but per UKC just being there absolutely positively does NOT constitute a scratch. It just doesn't. The rules don't allow it and scratching a dog for "bein in the wrong place" is just not allowed by the rules.

Now if the judge SAW or heard something to where he knows the dog was molesting the off game then you might have something but just for being there as the origional post stated the dog is NOT supposed to be scratched.

Like I said for all we know the origional poster may be leaving out that they saw him running the possum or that he ran it every breath but you don't scratch on what you think. You scratch on what you know.

If you know they are burning up a deer then you can scratch them, but you can't scratch a dog that isn't opening on that deer and that you don't see molesting that deer in any way just cause the other 3 dogs were running it wide open and they happened to be in the same direction.

The dog has to do something to get scratched, not just be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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Posted by Rip on 04-16-2012 03:43 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by nccoonhunter197
Exactly my point. The dog doesn't have to open its mouth to be considered "molesting" off game. I had a dog that would trail a possum and then lie on an empty tree. He was still molesting off game even though he didn't tree them.

That's not what the post says though.

It says the possum was already TREED, then according to the advisor that dog would have to TREE on that tree to be scratched at that tree.

That's the bottom line. Todd stated what was considered molesting, running and treeing. You would have to SEE THE DOG RUNNING IT SILENT or know the dog ran the same track or the dog has to tree on that tree to be scratched.

Being in the area or being at the tree is not enough.

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