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-- Do we UNMINUS these points too??? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=494903)

Do we UNMINUS these points too???

Dog A is struck for 100, then treed for 125. Dog goes quiet, 2 is started, two catches dog. Dog A minused 125. Moments later dog A walks into cast with freshly killed kitten coon in mouth. Rule 3(b) says plus strike points for coon caught on ground.
Now, since Allen has stated that we must go back and UNMINUS tree points when a dog is found to be on two separate split trees being scored as one tree, do we also go back and UNMINUS this dogs tree points since it obviously caught the coon that was treed and rule 3(b) makes it clear that in this situation tree points are deleted, strike plussed?
This actually happened three times in three consecutive hunts a few years back. Once to me, once to Joe Newlin and the next weekend it happened to another local guy. In all three instances the minus tree points stood, we plussed the strike when the dog walked in with the coon and then recast the dog with a net score of -25.
I think UKC's decision to allow casts to go back and UNMINUS anything after the fact is one of it's worst decisions ever.

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i would think so since you cant have tree points on a caught coon... how can you minus what you cant plus... just my thoughts tho not sure

Common sense rule! A rule can't be written for every situation. Score the dog for what it did and let the best dog win.

Good one, Jim

I think this one was touched on a few years back. I guess we need to wait on Allen, but I think the minus tree points stay.

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minus the tree the handler treed him.

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Minus stands I say! Why was he treed if he caught the coon on the ground? If the coon bailed the dog did in fact leave a tree that he was treed on. Nothing to unminus. Either a handler mistake caused it or a bad break did .

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quote:

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Originally posted by ysudep2
Minus stands I say! Why was he treed if he caught the coon on the ground? If the coon bailed the dog did in fact leave a tree that he was treed on. Nothing to unminus. Either a handler mistake caused it or a bad break did .

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Then that's a combination of both. A handler mistake for treeing your dog on the ground and a bad break that your dog sounds exactly the same. That instance doesn't fit this example at all though considering your dog can't kill the coon, and isn't walking into the cast with it.

quote:

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Originally posted by patches9452
i got one that if she catches it and cant kill it she will tree it on the ground... i know shes not a very good kill dog but when she trees on the ground sounds just like when she trees up a tree

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To me, the obvious answer is the dog stays minused but......since UKC says we must UNMINUS them when they cover two trees scored as one, how do we not go back and correct this situation too? The dog was treed on a caught coon. Rule 3(b) clearly states you delete tree points when the coon is caught. If we must UNMINUS the dog on two trees, why don't we UNMINUS this dog?

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quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
To me, the obvious answer is the dog stays minused but......since UKC says we must UNMINUS them when they cover two trees scored as one, how do we not go back and correct this situation too? The dog was treed on a caught coon. Rule 3(b) clearly states you delete tree points when the coon is caught. If we must UNMINUS the dog on two trees, why don't we UNMINUS this dog?

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And I suppose that dog is covering two separate trees because the coon climbed both of them.............

You don't have to convince me Laura. We minused them, they stayed minused, never thought about doing it any other way. My point here is we now have situations where they get a "do over" and like situations where they don't. Bad way to interpret rules.

Do over's just plain suck.

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AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

I was in a cast one night and Dog A was struck in and then shut up. The 8 minutes was applied and it got him so he was minused 100 pts. About 30 seconds after the 8 got him, he came walking in with a kitten coon in his mouth and dropped it at his owners feet. We all had a good laugh but the 100- stood. Jim, it seems like you are talking about a completely different scenario than the 2 trees as 1 situation. I don't think that Allen said to unminus in every situation. What if a dog was called treed in a hole and then left and was minused his tree points. Would you unminus him if you found out later that he was in a hole?

Too many rules, too many different opinions and too many arguements.
Need to get as close as possible and simply who showed you the coon.

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
I was in a cast one night and Dog A was struck in and then shut up. The 8 minutes was applied and it got him so he was minused 100 pts. About 30 seconds after the 8 got him, he came walking in with a kitten coon in his mouth and dropped it at his owners feet. We all had a good laugh but the 100- stood. Jim, it seems like you are talking about a completely different scenario than the 2 trees as 1 situation. I don't think that Allen said to unminus in every situation. What if a dog was called treed in a hole and then left and was minused his tree points. Would you unminus him if you found out later that he was in a hole?

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AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

I still disagree with the un minusing of the touching trees myself. Im trying my best to forget about that ruling lol.

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okay add this in........when a dog carrying a strike position comes back into handlers. His strike points are minused. So would Dog A not get strike minused for coming back in even tho he was carrying a coon?? if you went to were the dog was and found him with dead coon......plus the strike points.......but the dog came back in basicly off track once he was minued from the tree......

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Jim, big difference when comparing the two scenarios isn't it? (yours and trees scored as one)

When a dog is declared treed it must stay where it is being scored at until handled - tree, hole, pile or telephone pole. In your case, the declared dog left the tree and came into the cast. Minus tree points. Luckily its strike points were still live at the time it arrived with the caught coon. Plus the strike points and recast. If you don;t know what strike position is now available ask Trevor.

^^^^

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quote:

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Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Jim, big difference when comparing the two scenarios isn't it? (yours and trees scored as one)

When a dog is declared treed it must stay where it is being scored at until handled - tree, hole, pile or telephone pole.

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Michael Ghorley

quote:

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Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Jim, big difference when comparing the two scenarios isn't it? (yours and trees scored as one)

When a dog is declared treed it must stay where it is being scored at until handled - tree, hole, pile or telephone pole. In your case, the declared dog left the tree and came into the cast. Minus tree points. Luckily its strike points were still live at the time it arrived with the caught coon. Plus the strike points and recast. If you don;t know what strike position is now available ask Trevor.

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__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

quote:

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Originally posted by Allen / UKC
If you don;t know, ask Trevor.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dperry
I would like to see this become a monthly column in bloodlines. Topics such as coon hunting, sporting events, and what not would be great reading.

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Re: Do we UNMINUS these points too???

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
Dog A is struck for 100, then treed for 125. Dog goes quiet, 2 is started, two catches dog. Dog A minused 125. Moments later dog A walks into cast with freshly killed kitten coon in mouth. Rule 3(b) says plus strike points for coon caught on ground.
Now, since Allen has stated that we must go back and UNMINUS tree points when a dog is found to be on two separate split trees being scored as one tree, do we also go back and UNMINUS this dogs tree points since it obviously caught the coon that was treed and rule 3(b) makes it clear that in this situation tree points are deleted, strike plussed?
This actually happened three times in three consecutive hunts a few years back. Once to me, once to Joe Newlin and the next weekend it happened to another local guy. In all three instances the minus tree points stood, we plussed the strike when the dog walked in with the coon and then recast the dog with a net score of -25.
I think UKC's decision to allow casts to go back and UNMINUS anything after the fact is one of it's worst decisions ever.

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As Allen said, a big difference in the Two scenarios. We know that UKCs position is one tree at the top one tree at the bottom. What we dont know in Jims case is where that dog caught that coon, Could have just as well found the Kit. after he quit his tree and took minus. So the minus stands. All we can do is judge according to what we know and not what we assume.

Jim we have always plussed dogs that were on different trees that joined at the top and no one knows which tree the coon climbed, so what would you have them do put an exact distance on how far the trees can be at the base and we will all carry a tape measure with us in the woods? When given the opportunity to do whats right for the dog while operating within the rules should always be our goal ,and if that means correcting a mistake when we have evidence that the original assumption was wrong I think thats a good thing but it sure seems to have put a burrr under your saddle.

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