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Rules Question

I have read it in UKC Official Rule book but when you try to tell someone on a cast. They say you are wrong. Here is the question - on a Nite Ch or Grand Nite cast a dog strikes and runs a deer out of hearing and the judge says that is what the dog is doing but you do not see the deer is this dog scratched. I read it in rule book and it says running, treeing or molesting off game. It does not say anything about seeing. What is the ruling when its obvious. My opinion the dog is scratched. If someone from UKC can help clear this up it would be a BIG help. Thanks.

The judge makes the decision to scratch the dog. PERIOD. If the handler disagrees he may call for a cast vote. the result may override the judge or support his decision. if the cst vote supports the judges decision, the handler may put a question on the card, at which time the cast must return to the club for a ruling by the MOH.
But the simple answer to your question is NO the deer doesnt have to be seen.

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But in more that 90% of the time, you need to see the deer to be absolutely sure. Most judges will not make the 'scratch' call, unless they see the deer leave out. Most cast members will not vote to 'scratch' if they did not see the deer.

But all-in-all, it is the judges 'judgment call' and then the cast members 'judgment' vote! Like many of the rules, it all falls back on being an 'honor rule system'.

It's not as easy as, "YES", they ALL were in on catching that skunk. The proof is not as obvious! LOL

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In this part of the country the coons are ran often and they run hard and can get out of hearing in mountain terrain So no your not going to scratch me for off game for getting out of hearing
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A few years ago I was in a Nt Ch cast and all four dogs made 5 circles around us running a smoking hot track , crossing open fields , etc.

As a judge I suggested they all be scratched for what I determined to be a deer. One gentleman ask for a cast vote , which I figured would be divided..

ALL 4 GUYS VOTED SCRATCH FOR OFF GAME. We caught um' and went home. We never saw the deer but those guys made the right call.

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Mark Reavis
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Dual Grand Champion Super Sambo

Longshot, that is the way it should be. Everybody should know what their dogs are doing.They need to call their dog regardless if the dog is right or wrong. It dont take alot to tell if a dog is running coon or off game. Let the best dog win the cast, not the best handler. If the dog is running junk, their running it and face the facts. UKC needs to word the rule a little better that way everybody has clear understanding of how it should be.

I was judging in a UKC World Championship Zone hunt one night. Three dogs were trailing a coyote all around us. We could hear the coyote yelping right out in front of the dogs. I scratched them and they voted not to scratch. I questioned the vote. My dog got treed way through the country and we went to her. The hunt ran out and it took them 2 hours to catch their dogs off the coyote. When we got back to the MOH, he said that UKC's interpretation was that you had to see the off-game.

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
I was judging in a UKC World Championship Zone hunt one night. Three dogs were trailing a coyote all around us. We could hear the coyote yelping right out in front of the dogs. I scratched them and they voted not to scratch. I questioned the vote. My dog got treed way through the country and we went to her. The hunt ran out and it took them 2 hours to catch their dogs off the coyote. When we got back to the MOH, he said that UKC's interpretation was that you had to see the off-game.

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I drove around one night to catch my dogs running dear. They are as trash free as you can get but I call a skunk a skunk. They were running way to fast for anything but dear or yote. I got infront of them so I could burn them so I could see what they were running and burn them up on it.
It was a big old slim coon. So you never really know. It came out of a slew into open farm ground and was really turning it on. My gyp caught it on the ground shortly after it crossed the road.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
When we got back to the MOH, he said that UKC's interpretation was that you had to see the off-game.

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Mark Reavis
Southwest Missouri
Dual Grand Champion Super Sambo

Longshot I agree with you 100%. The bad thing is there are several MOH that wont stick to it because it is not in writing in the UKC rule book . The wording needs to be changed so every MOH and all hunters know the ruling on it. In the rule book as of now it says running, treeing or molesting off game. These guys know what their dogs are doing, they just dont want to have that word scratched for off game beside their dogs name on the scorecard.

I would like to see yawl bring your common since and use them on some of these flat land coons. I thought I new a deer race when I heard one till the dogs proved me wrong. I had a deer race that stoped at a tin horn then went on to tree it in the middle of a section that didn't have over half a dozen trees in the whole thing. The race ended treed in a hole.
Had another one that was caught on the ground. Both were running like a deer. It makes me wonder how many coon I have shocked them off of when they were younger.

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Okie Dawg , no disrespect but at "some" point a call needs to be made by the judge. I've been doin' this a good long time and feel like I have a reasonable grasp of a trash race vs. a hard running coon. I will always give them a good lee-way before making any call.

But I just don't see how anybody can stand there for most of the hunt time, listening to dogs smoke a track across open fields and cutting circles at wide open speed and not make the scratch call.

Could I be wrong once in a while ? Of course !... But judges are sometimes wrong about babbling , tree moving , striking wrong dogs , etc , etc. The 1st base umpire gets some calls wrong , but he's still gotta make a call.

HOWEVER , the scratch call I descibed in my 1st post is the only time I've ever seen it done in 30 years of comp hunting. It is RARE.

__________________
Mark Reavis
Southwest Missouri
Dual Grand Champion Super Sambo

quote:

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Originally posted by Okie Dawg
I would like to see yawl bring your common since and use them on some of these flat land coons. I thought I new a deer race when I heard one till the dogs proved me wrong. I had a deer race that stoped at a tin horn then went on to tree it in the middle of a section that didn't have over half a dozen trees in the whole thing. The race ended treed in a hole.
Had another one that was caught on the ground. Both were running like a deer. It makes me wonder how many coon I have shocked them off of when they were younger.

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Okie Dawg. Hey I live in Indiana and I have seen hard running coon in those flat lands your talking about and I have seen and heard dogs run junk in those flats lands as well. But most of the year a dog is not going to run hard and low down out of the country to tree a coon. I have hunted the hills and hollars of KY, TN and a hunter can tell the differance between coon track and junk. Another example would be Dog A strikes out of the truck and runs across 3 county roads and still running and the other 3 dogs on cast strike honest and tree a coon and Dog A is still running low down. The judge owns dog A and he says he is not running trash, whats the call. Scratch Dog A or continue listening to dog A on every drop run trash and have to call timeout to go get him or her 3 or 4 county roads over from where they were turned loose . Than you have the hour on dog A and handler gets dog A caught with 10 minutes left on hour and the rest of casts dogs are in the box and you have hunted maybe 30 -45 minutes of hunt time and deadline is closing in so you cant finish your 120 minutes.

what happens if they are not nt. ch. or gr. nt. dogs? Do you minus them and then call time out and put the hour on them everyone keeps saying scratch but it is not a scratch for registered casts.

i agree gotta use some common sense and good judgement when making calls....



ive also heard of dogs that would smoke a deer till it crossed a hot coon track and all the sudden fall treed...never miss a beat or stop barking...just fall treed with a coon...but knew dang well it was burning a deer....

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I believe UKC needs to change it for registered dogs also. They are suppose to be coon dogs, not deer, coyote, or any other off game. If they are in a Licensed Event they should be there to tree coon and have a good time and the best dog wins. Not chase every kind of off game you can think of and make it a terrible hunt for everybody.

I too have had some long, fast, circle runs that covered a mile or two. Did not see what they were chasing, but ended treeing a coon. I knew those dogs and I know coon hunting. They were running off game and happened to jump a coon and tree it. I personally would scratch dogs.

if im judgeing im gonna pretty much have to see the off game... yes judges make mistakes but if i make one its not going to be on something i think is happening.... i have seen to many races that sounded like deer races and wound up being a coon and im not talking they switched tracks.... the world hunt in 87 my dog struck and was coming straight towards us burning it up a deer ran right past us and hit a netwire fence and kept going.... they told me i was scratched... i new my dog and said shes not running a deer and about that time she trees 20 feet from us with a coon... and no they did not scratch me.... sometimes what you think and what is actually going on is not the case.... if i error i want it to be in the other mans favor

Yea you guys are right. You can eventualy tell if it is a coon or trash. The speed and distance will tell a lot. That and time ran but these judges that want to get a dog for babbleing on the first dump will be scratching for trash every time they get in the woods with a dog faster than thiers.
I don't have a problem with the scratching for trash or babbleing but for it to be common since it has to be something you have delt with commonly. So for a lot of the judges I have seen it wouldn't be common since. We had a judge one night that had not written two tree we made on the first dump. They decided we needed to take the score card back to the MOH. The judge had written 120 minutes in the time slot allready so our hunt was over.
Now you can see why I don't want to see things left up to the judges common since. LOL

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febuary i have ran coon as high as 5hrs.... not trail run some we would tree some we would lose and some we finally caught on the ground.... the places i hunt in the winter you will very rarely catch a coon because they can just stay in front of most dogs unless they do something stupid... i have turned lose on coon crossing the road and run them over an hour before they were finally caught or treed.... no way if you hadnt seen the coon you would have thought that race was a coon.... my feeling is to always error in someone elses direction... that way people are not quitting hunts because they got cheated and if that deer dog beats me i got more problems than a trashy dog to worry about... sure if there is no question its trash as in i saw it they are gone... but in all my years of hunting i have yet to be able to smell trash unless it was a skunk...

Pretty hard for me to cipher a 5hr coon race. What kinds of woods is that you hunt in?

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Michael Ghorley

quote:

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Originally posted by GA DAWG
Pretty hard for me to cipher a 5hr coon race. What kinds of woods is that you hunt in?

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question

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
I was judging in a UKC World Championship Zone hunt one night. Three dogs were trailing a coyote all around us. We could hear the coyote yelping right out in front of the dogs. I scratched them and they voted not to scratch. I questioned the vote. My dog got treed way through the country and we went to her. The hunt ran out and it took them 2 hours to catch their dogs off the coyote. When we got back to the MOH, he said that UKC's interpretation was that you had to see the off-game.

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