UKC Forums - rule ?

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 03-26-2012 04:32 PM:

rule ?

If you get minused for your dog moveing off a tree, tree it back in at the same place and you get there and it is a brush pile 40 yds. long do you get the minuse taken away or what?

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Posted by josh on 03-26-2012 04:36 PM:

nope....just a bad break.

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Posted by JiM on 03-26-2012 05:34 PM:

Well Al, there's that can of worms again....

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 03-26-2012 05:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Well Al, there's that can of worms again....

LOL........ I must had missed it or forgot. What was decided? I didn't have it happen. I just heard about it and was wondering about it since it was black and white. I mean all cast members agreed it was on the brush pile.
The hole thing I heard about was more complex and wouldn't fit under this question. I was just wondering if it was black and white like the question what would you need to do as a judge.

Posted by GA DAWG on 03-26-2012 08:30 PM:

Shoot yeah. Unminus that rascal

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Posted by john Duemmer on 03-26-2012 08:48 PM:

Never hunted a dog that i couldnt tell the difference between a tree and a brush pile by the way he sounded?
Sounds like a poor decision by the handler to me.

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Posted by Majestic Tree H on 03-26-2012 08:54 PM:

Um Kinda Reminds me of a World Hunt when a "Treed" Hound Slips off a Leaner over a Flooding Creek and washes Downstream, Then comes Back to the Same Tree with the Coon and is Called for Leaving the Tree !!!!

Hey it was the Difference in Which one was going to be World Champ !!!

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 03-26-2012 09:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Never hunted a dog that i couldnt tell the difference between a tree and a brush pile by the way he sounded?
Sounds like a poor decision by the handler to me.

What could had he done differant besides tree his dog?

Posted by john Duemmer on 03-26-2012 09:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
What could had he done differant besides tree his dog?

He coulda just kept his mouth shut, even if the judge put the stationary on him if the dog was movin enough to get minused he was movin enough to break the stationary. Eventually the dog is either gonna get himself dug in enough to stay put or hes gonna move on.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 03-26-2012 09:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
He coulda just kept his mouth shut, even if the judge put the stationary on him if the dog was movin enough to get minused he was movin enough to break the stationary. Eventually the dog is either gonna get himself dug in enough to stay put or hes gonna move on.

LOL your right. I am glad to learn that on here rather than in the woods. I wouldn't had thought of it either though. Mine has allways gotten inside the pile some were and have to call them out. Thank's John.

Posted by Tony Dominguez on 03-26-2012 09:26 PM:

A JUDGE CAN CHANGE A MISTAKE ON THE SCORECARD AT ANYTIME, AND THATS CLEARLY A MISTAKE ON THE JUDGES END.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 03-26-2012 09:38 PM:

Yep Grady its one of lifes simple lessons that took me about 50 yrs. to learn. Coondogs,women, jobs or about anything else. WHEN IN DOUBT keep your mouth shut. LOL.

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Posted by jackbob42 on 03-27-2012 01:38 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tony Dominguez
A JUDGE CAN CHANGE A MISTAKE ON THE SCORECARD AT ANYTIME, AND THATS CLEARLY A MISTAKE ON THE JUDGES END.

I wouldn't say it was a mistake on the judges part.
That coon went into that pile in only one place. The dog should have stayed where the coon went in.
If he moved enough to notice before you get there , he's minused.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 03-27-2012 01:52 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jackbob42
I wouldn't say it was a mistake on the judges part.
That coon went into that pile in only one place. The dog should have stayed where the coon went in.
If he moved enough to notice before you get there , he's minused.

Should have stayed where the coon went in..... Give me a break, I suppose if the coon had left the pile on the other side and went on that you wouldnt have wanted that dog to check to see if the coon left?
\ To many people that only see the rules as a way to get a dog minused.

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Posted by JiM on 03-27-2012 04:55 AM:

Re: rule ?

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
If you get minused for your dog moveing off a tree, tree it back in at the same place and you get there and it is a brush pile 40 yds. long do you get the minuse taken away or what?

That dog is minused Grady.You obviously never saw where the dog was treed when it was called treed or when it was minused so you don't KNOW where that dog was. You just know he moved. That the dog was found in a brushpile means nothing. The dog was called treed, it moved, it is minused. Why would you go back and change it?

Posted by jackbob42 on 03-27-2012 01:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Should have stayed where the coon went in..... Give me a break, I suppose if the coon had left the pile on the other side and went on that you wouldnt have wanted that dog to check to see if the coon left?
\ To many people that only see the rules as a way to get a dog minused.

Once the handler calls his dog treed , if it moves , it's minused.
I don't blame the dog for going where the coon goes. That's not the point.
BUT , if you allow one dog to move , you have to allow ALL of them to move. Next thing you know , every dog that leaves a tree will be "just following the coon".

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 03-27-2012 03:03 PM:

Page 57 rule# 5 In case of running a coon in hole or place of refuge other than a tree, handler may call dog treed. However, if not called treed, cast may proceed to general area,and track be considered finished if dogs, by actions either tree barking OR otherwise,show to the satisfaction of the judge, coon to be there. One dog must show end of trail.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 03-27-2012 03:07 PM:

Re: Re: rule ?

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
That dog is minused Grady.You obviously never saw where the dog was treed when it was called treed or when it was minused so you don't KNOW where that dog was. You just know he moved. That the dog was found in a brushpile means nothing. The dog was called treed, it moved, it is minused. Why would you go back and change it?

He moved on the brush pile (place of refuge). I thought they were allowed to move on barns, brush piles and such places. 40 yds is a big brush pile.

Posted by josh on 03-27-2012 03:54 PM:

If UKC is going to allow us to unminus a dog for what we think might have happed, they might as well just do away with minus points alltogether because no decent handler will ever take minus again.

You score the dogs the best you can for what they are doing....bad break, but the minus stays.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 03-27-2012 04:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by josh
If UKC is going to allow us to unminus a dog for what we think might have happed, they might as well just do away with minus points alltogether because no decent handler will ever take minus again.

You score the dogs the best you can for what they are doing....bad break, but the minus stays.

After they minused the dog for moveing he had to tree it right back in. Then all dogs were treed on the same brush pile before it was over. You are right, that is a bad break. I just never had anything that obvious and didn't know if you could correct what was a bad call by the judge.

Posted by jabrown on 03-27-2012 05:05 PM:

Most people will tell you that you need to know the rules so that you don't get cheated, but the main reason you should try to have the best understanding of the rules as possible is so that you can play he game right. Avoiding getting cheated is just a nice bonus.

One of the reasons that there are rules like 5(a), is so that you can go in to dog(s) when they are in a hole or place of refuge without having to take minus on your tree points if they are moving. In the end it's all just a gamble, but I'd say the handler most educated on the rules has the advantage, assuming that he's packing a coondog.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 03-27-2012 05:50 PM:

What if this dog was on one end of the log pile and 2 other dogs where on other end. We clearly can't see them cause its so thick. We hear a dog moving in brush and barks with other dogs. Then we hear him run back and bark where he was. Can't see him but I mean who can't tell a dogs moving by nearly half the length of a football field!!! What you gonna do then?

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Posted by Buckshot on 03-27-2012 06:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jackbob42
I wouldn't say it was a mistake on the judges part.
That coon went into that pile in only one place. The dog should have stayed where the coon went in.
If he moved enough to notice before you get there , he's minused.

quote:
Originally posted by jackbob42
BUT , if you allow one dog to move , you have to allow ALL of them to move. Next thing you know , every dog that leaves a tree will be "just following the coon".

LOL, does that same theory hold true if coon goes up one tree and crosses over to another tree that branches touch?

As you said, coon went into brushpile in one place, well coon went up tree in one place.

Why should brushpile on ground be different than touching trees?

Posted by Okie Dawg on 03-27-2012 06:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Buckshot
LOL, does that same theory hold true if coon goes up one tree and crosses over to another tree that branches touch?

As you said, coon went into brushpile in one place, well coon went up tree in one place.

Why should brushpile on ground be different than touching trees?

Yep 3 huge trees laying top to bottom in a row with a lot of other brush to boot. LOL

Posted by john Duemmer on 03-27-2012 06:49 PM:

Just one mans opinion but if you arrive at the brush pile and it is obvious that the dog had been there the whole time trying to get at the coon and was satisfactorily showing end of the trail at a place of refuge other than a`tree then the dog did his job and the minus should be corrected.
The handler in this case probably should have known his dog a little better and suggested that the cast move in to see exactly what was going on in which case the dog wouldnt have been given the undeserved minus.
Why not correct a mistake when it becomes apparent?

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