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Competition vs. Pleasure

Another thread made me think about this, and I thought it worthy of a separate conversation, so as to not derail that other guy's thread on a rule question. Here's partially what I wrote...

"I think one thing people forget, is that in the old days coon hunting was more of a social event. Folks didn't mind dogs "helping" one another or "backing" another on a tree. They just wanted to go out and tree some coon, they didn't want to walk all over god's creation going from one tree to another. And much of that remains today, in certain circles. It's us competition hunters that demand a dog be independent and do there own thing. In other words, backing a dog on a tree is a fault in a competition hunters point of you, not necessarily a coon hunters. I think this is why UKC allows 5 minutes to get on a tree after the first one, and you're only penalized for taking too long, not the aspect of covering in itself."

We say we hunt for pleasure during the week and competition on the weekend, but do we??? I mean how much fun is it really when you get together with your hunting buddies that all pack "competition" dogs and you either spend the night, all walking all over the country, or splitting up to go to your own trees? I mean what's the point in getting together with your buddies if you spend the night in different directions???

And if the answer is, what's wrong with a little bit of competitive nature between friends, then stop calling it "pleasure" hunting! I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but I beleive many of us have taken the sport in a completely different direction. We used to take our coon dogs to a competion hunt to see who had the best one, or simply to shoot the bull, while carrying a scorecard around. Now we take our competition dogs out coon hunting, watch them take off in 4 different directions a mile or two away, in a woods we probably don't have permission to hunt, and we wrongly call that "pleasure hunting"!

Just some random thoughts...

David Schmidt

OK... reread my post, and realized someone is bound to ask, what would I prefer to hunt???

I would prefer to hunt a dog that leaves the lead strap maybe in a trot, but not a gallup! I want them to strike a coon nearby if one is there, and if not, go find one. I don't want them to run away from me, and maybe by chance run across a coon, or not start hunting until they get to the back of the woods, or worst the next woods over.

I would like them to tree whatever coon they strike, and if they and another dog strike the same coon, they should tree together. I don't want t a dog that seems to have a need to "get by themselves".

And yes, I want to have the best dog in the woods, but that doesn't mean getting by themsleves... it means striking the first coon, and then with or without help, treeing it first! I think the need to get by themselves only exists if they can't move a track quickly and therefore tree first.

So if I have a dog that gets down to work quickly, and has a decent nose, they should get first strike. If they have a good nose and can move a track, they ought to get first tree. And if you put them in coon, this should all happen 100 yards from the truck, right?

So if you think about it, the modern "competition dog" was perhaps developed to get out there by themselves, because they couldn't beat the other dogs to the same tree. Instead of developing a dog that had a good nose, and could move a track fast, we developed a dog that just gets by themselves so they can tree at their leisure. Maybe, just maybe, instead of creating a better coon dog, we created an independent dog to mask other weaknesses.

David Schmidt

I like em all split and everybody walks from tree to tree together re casting,its alot easier to BS at the tree with only 1 dog there,weather I compatition hunted or not I wouldnt hunt anything different,Ive been thinking bout this same thing for some time now.

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Jesse nappin
TEAM TREEDOGG!

Jesse,

But then isn't that like you and your buddies all hunting by yourselves, it just so happens you are in the same woods???

I'm not pokin fun... as I'm in the same boat. But I struggle these days with whether we are competing for who has the best coondog, or who has the most independent dog???

I'm not a NASCAR fan, but as I understand it, they don't all drive individual races for time, and then compare their times. They race against each other, on the same track at the same time, under the same conditions. If NASCAR could "split tree" they would run all those cars on separate tracks and just compare their times when they're all done.

Am I off base, with that train of thought?

Your right on.

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Jesse nappin
TEAM TREEDOGG!

SOME DOGS I HAVE HUNTED WERE TRUE PLEASURE DOGS THEY WOULD HUNT THE WOODS IF THEY DIDNT STRIKE ANYTHING THEY WOULD COME BACK , UNLESS YOU TURNED ANOTHER DOG WITH THEM THEN IT WAS A WHOLE NEW BALLGAME, WHICH IS WHAT I LIKE

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i see your point....but at the same time, it only takes 1 dog to tree a coon...i rather keep 1 goodun than a pack of pot lickers...

i hate trying to lead more than 1 dog...cheaper and easier to take care of 1 dog than a couple or a bunch...

i can focus all my efforts on one dog which will bring out the best in him...often times guys got a bunch of dogs and not enough time to make a goodun out of any of them...


to ME, my 1 dog is a pleasure to hunt..get in, get struck, get treed...go shine it, drive down the road and do it all over again...

rarely do i turn loose more than 1 dog..my dog and the dogs i hunt end up pretty independent...they have their own brain and know how to use it...me and my buddy crossed paths the other nite..he was in the next ditch over...his pup was treeing and mine was hunting..them 2 dogs live on the same farm but since we started hunting both they dont play or run around together or hunt together...my dog didnt "me too"...he could cared less...he wanted to go find a coon...thats what i like to see...any ole potlicker can run to a treeing dog....i bet i could teach my pitbull to do that...


different hunters like different things...we do turn a couple loose together once in a while just to keep them friendly and used to being turned loose with other dogs...but 95% of the time we hunt em alone...


i just like a dog with a brain that'll go out and hunt and tree its own coon and do it alone....iffin my dog cant accomplish that, he wont be living on the farm real long...thats just me...

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Team Trackman!!

'PR' Trackman's Dizzy Duke

You described my kind of dog. I had a buddy tell me that my old Driver dog was a me-to dog.

I asked him when we hunt with other dogs who usually gets 1st strike. His reply was Driver. I then asked who gets 1st tree. He replied usually Driver. I then asked how is he a me-to dog if he is leading a track from strike to tree?

I actually did pretty well handling the ole boy.

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Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

the way i see it if your in thin coon like we are here! those independent type dogs will get out of pocket only to be recovered by garmin. what good is that dogs should work as cast.

You can compition hunt a pleasure dog but all compition dogs aren't a pleasure to hunt.
I most always hunt my two dogs together but they can tree a coon without the others help. My older dog doesn't back just any dog either and some nights hunting with buddies we have to go to two trees.

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It is a pleasure for me to here one dog work a track from start to finish. Be that in the woods with another dog or in the woods by itself. I don’t expect my dog to be by itself all the time. If another dog finds a track and she is close by then by all means go help out. However if she finds a track and another dog starts opening someplace else she better stick to what she is doing. If she is on the same track and the other dog trees first she better cover him if that’s the coon she was running.

I want a dog that leaves like it’s late for work but don’t run over a track. It’s a pleasure for me to see any animal do its job be it coondog or horse with drive and confidence.

I enjoy hunting with other people and would every night but I can’t make a dog what I want it to be with all the distractions of the other dogs in the woods. So I hunt by myself 90% of the time. Not because I don’t like company it’s just because they don’t want to leave their dogs at home. LOL

I just like going. Id rather cut only one at a time. 2 at most but have cut 3 or 4 or 5 lol...What a cluster!!! Its actually more fun to me to just hunt a couple. We can still cut up and carry on. Plus our dogs might actually learn something.

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Michael Ghorley

Not to change the post, but the talk of hunting with others just got me reminiscing. For about 3 years a whole bunch of guys would gather around the Ashley, MI area to coon hunt together. There were times when there would be 10-12 trucks. All the trucks had CB radios, and we often broke up into groups of 3-6. Most times the groups were close enough you could sometimes hear the other group.

We called ourselves the Ashley Social Club. Boy was that a bunch of fun! You could not imagine the level of B.S.

Anyway, it was getting so crowded that you would be lucky if ya got to cut your dog loose 1 or 2 times a night.

Now, I mostly hunt by myself, but every now and then think it would be nice to get back together.

O.K. i am done ... carry on ... sorry about getting side tracked.

By the way most of the dogs hunted were also competition hunted.

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Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

quote:

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Originally posted by GA DAWG
I just like going. Id rather cut only one at a time. 2 at most but have cut 3 or 4 or 5 lol...What a cluster!!! Its actually more fun to me to just hunt a couple. We can still cut up and carry on. Plus our dogs might actually learn something.

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Clyde Murphy 229-344-7308

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When I go "pleasure hunting" with other people I have to drive at least 25 miles to meet them at a mid way point. At most I can do this maybe once a week. When we do meet up to hunt together that's what I want to do, hunt together. If I want to consistantly go to my dog alone then I can stay at home and hunt by myself.
The guys I hunt with all have decent hounds that win casts consistantly. They will work together to tree coon, but they will also frequently split and get treed too. Generally split trees in this area are fairly close together and we end up walking in as a group for most of the way to the trees. Ocassionally one or two dogs will get out of pocket and end up a long way off. When this happens it means we are spending time we could be hunting together loading up and going to round up dogs. Have that happen twice in one evenings hunt and you now get to turn out probably only twice instead of 3-4 times. Since at least one of us is probably running a young dog this means that much less training time/opportunity for that/those young dogs.
Where/what we hunt is mostly small areas of trees (tiny in comparison to what many have to hunt) surrounded by crop ground. Farm groves, timbered pasture, creeks with some trees on or near by comprise probably 75% of what we have to hunt. The other 25% is along the river, some bottom ground and some timbered hill sides. This is the only area where it is "safe" for a dog to go deep, and most nights there is no need for a dog to do so. When one does it usually means the coon aren't moving very well that night or/and they are running past coon or not hunting an area out very well. There is an abundance of coon in this part of the world and the majority of nights we will get treed within 1/4 mile or less, there is no consistant "need" for a dog to get deep to tree a coon. On those rare nights when the dogs need to get deep to get one up that's okay, but we probably will only turn loose one more time to then decide if it's time to call it a night and wait for a better time to go.
For me/us a go yonder type dog severly limits the places we can turn loose that are somewhat safe for the dog and unlikely to get us into potential trouble with land owners and people who have no idea what men with lights on their heads are doing out at night. A dog like this doesn't have a very long life expectancy around here between crossing roads and potentially getting shot by someone.
The best dogs I've had and those I've hunted with owned by others all had three things in common, they were intelligent, accurate and were driven to get game. They were smart enough to hunt with and tree with other dogs that were right and accurate/independant enough to stay away from slicks. These aren't just "local" dogs either, several of them were/are dogs campaigned at the national level.
Most of these dogs were a pleasure to hunt too. So to me a really good dog is just that, a really good dog. It can be a pleasure dog and a competitive dog as well, they aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. But to each his/her own, feed and hunt what works for you.

years ago it stated in the ukc rules that dogs had to pack together cant remember when they chaged that.

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fred harroun
319-325-3786
Plotts
NPHA
APA

I truly enjoy hunting one hound by itself, alone or with a buddy. When hunting by myself I'll often cut two hounds but in opposit directions. The garmin has made this training method much safer. Having a hound tree several singles in one night is a real high for me. When I cut a hound loose I just as soon not see it until it's treed.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fred Harroun
years ago it stated in the ukc rules that dogs had to pack together cant remember when they chaged that.

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This very thing being discussed here is exactly what has kept me from getting real involved in competition hunting..

.If i win a hunt i want to know.."I" had the best dog there that night. In my opinion if every dog heads in its own separate direction..You have proved NOTHING!!...for that dog has no other dog he has to beat to the tree..one dog may head north strike a hot track and tree it in 100 yds...another dog may head south, strike a track that trees in 300 yds...another dog heads east and strikes a track that goes straight down a creek over driftpiles ect..and he must work to tree.....one dog trees 3 times but only one coon seen in 3 leafy trees...and recieves some circle points..and plus points...the other dog trees 3 times one coon treed and recieves plus points for the coon and minus points for the others because it's clear no coon are there. But ..HOW!!..do you know the other dogs trees that were circled were not also empty!!.......on a typical hunt like this ...you have not proved one single thing....
Now if those same dogs ran the same track one is going to get first strike and one is going to get first tree....pretty easy to soon tell who got the best dog.

But in our competitive nature we have bred dogs to be independent...thus we get strike and tree points, without really having to beat the guy's dog beside us.
If they would start nite hunting only when the leaves are off the trees. And do away with circle points..And start breeding dogs for track and tree...and forget all this get off by yourself and tree your own coon stuff.......i could get a whole lot more excited about competition hunting... And you would see a whole lot more pleasure guys entering .

i olny go to hunts when the leaves are off it cuts out a lot of bs and those high powerd dogs dont look to good or they just minus out and go home

competition vs. pleasure

to me in competition your there to tree as many coon as you can in the time alloted. the more first trees and fewest mistakes wins. pleasure hunting to me is listening to them strike and work a track up and get it treed. whether its one dog or three,i like to hear how they got there. of coarse its always better when your dog is in front

That's why I don't competition hunt.
I like to hear dogs compete with each other on the same track.
That's also why I like my beagles.
Track speed and nose power are the only things that impress me. Don't care how hard or loud a dog trees.
You'll never know just how fast your dog is if he never competes with another dog.
And , of course , I do like to B.S. with my buddies and separate trees cuts into that too much.

But , you're right Dave. I figured it out 20 years ago that folks didn't like getting beat by track speed. So they went to training and breeding "loners".

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Bob Brooks /
Jordan Tyler (grandson)

BackWoods River Walkers/Beagles
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i really think when ukc went to the 125 tree points thats when people really started to want these independant dogs

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fred harroun
319-325-3786
Plotts
NPHA
APA

very few people are interested in dogs that can compete.... they are more worried about winning than being able to compete.. in my opinion it has hurt the tracking ability a bunch

Why are yalls dogs not with mine when it strikes 300 yards to the left? Why did yalls go the wrong way?

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Michael Ghorley