UKC Forums - Pp ?

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Posted by Brian Collins on 09-26-2011 04:01 PM:

Pp ?

Say there is only three judges at an event and only three cast of reg. dogs. Each cast has a dog in it that is owned by a judge so each judge has to judge a cast that doesn't have his dog in it. Now say that each cast winner is a judges dog. Who judges the final cast? I hope this is clear.

Posted by REDNECKKENNELS on 09-26-2011 04:39 PM:

HELLO

YOU WOULD HAVE TO HAVE ANOTHER PACK JUDGE THEIR THAT IS THE ONLY WAY I COULD SEE IT.OR PLACE DOGS WITH THE SCORE THEY HAVE.THANKS SHAWN

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Posted by Don Wells on 09-26-2011 07:51 PM:

cant place dogs without a winners pack, unless another judge could be found the only way I can see to run the winners pack is for one of the cast winning judges to scratch their dog and judge the winners pack....tough luck for the gracious judge

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Posted by Brian Collins on 09-26-2011 11:45 PM:

at some of these hunts judges are hard to come by. so to say you would have to have another pack judge is not really an answer. plus if there was another judge this case wouldn't happen. couldn't you flip a coin to see who judges or have all three judge?

Posted by Seth Shipman on 09-27-2011 01:53 AM:

Some one would have to scratch their dog like Don said.

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Posted by Fred Hwkins on 09-27-2011 02:36 PM:

Future Clarification Needed

My question to this is why would someone have to scratch in this sccenario?

All three beagles were judged and advanced to the Winners Pack, each dog should have an oppourtunity to WIN.

Recommendation for this scenario as follows:
A RUN-Off or Play-Off using Two Brace Casts:
Give dogs a number and draw two of them and brace two of them (loser of brace cast #1 recieves 3rd place & winner of brace advances to brace cast #2 final cast to compete for 1st & 2nd place with dog that won the luck of the draw).
The Luck of the Draw dog advances (kinda like a bye) to the final cast (BYE or Luck of the Draw).

Do the same for the judges place the three of them in and draw til the odd man is drawen and that person judges the brace cast. The 3rd place dog owner or judge would judge the final cast or brace cast #2 for the 1st and 2nd place dogs. This is just FOOD 4 THOUGHT as I don't think its fair for a person to have to pull their dog just because they are a judge and their dog has advanced to a Winners Pack, due to availibilty of Qualified Judges.

This is JMO,
Fred

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Posted by MIKE CARDER on 09-27-2011 03:18 PM:

Good solution Fred

I like that but what do the rules state. I don't know? Guess I should read that.

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Posted by Glomski on 09-27-2011 04:00 PM:

A club should have enough judges to conduct a hunt. If that isn't the case then maybe that club should not be holding performance pack hunts. A club should have a minimum of 5 active judges. If a club does not have this then they are not ready to hold a performance pack hunt. Just my opinion.

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Posted by mitch gould on 09-27-2011 04:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Glomski
A club should have enough judges to conduct a hunt. If that isn't the case then maybe that club should not be holding performance pack hunts. A club should have a minimum of 5 active judges. If a club does not have this then they are not ready to hold a performance pack hunt. Just my opinion.

I was told this is one of the reasons why there will not be PP hunts in WV next year other than inwood and buchanon. Nobody wants to chase dogs in this terrain for an hour. The other reason being the 10 dog rule, ppl just loading dogs to have have enufff to hunt reg. It seem the scenario in question must have a logical answer. Areas growing may not have 5 judges at first and if they do they prob have no clue what they are doin yet. I remember goin and helping start many HH clubs years ago and I cant imagine how it would have went if u had to have 10 dogs to hutn reg and 5 jduges ,been tuff to grow it

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Posted by smokes creek on 09-27-2011 05:46 PM:

Thats why just like other registries, a club should have their judges lined up as well as a back up well before the trial... Imagine 40 dogs showing up to a spo trial and looking for judges the day of? Train wreck!
What you will all see as the program grows, clubs communicating with other clubs and judges to insure entries.. Coin flips are a joke in any format.. I say run till you have a winner, or have no winner ( my opinion)... I also think that in a pack trial, a certain number of dogs are needed to bring respect to the title and placements pf the hounds..

matt said it best.. If you dont have judges, and you cant line them up with advanced notice, then dont host a pp trial, just go support another club untill yours is ready... this format should be quality over quantaty.. Its the clubs responsibility not the UKC.

hmmmmm...3 judges with 3 hounds in a winners pack.. I say all 3 judge it together, with a club official or master of hounds.. who in their right mind would try to cheat that pack?

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Posted by smokes creek on 09-27-2011 06:06 PM:

on another thought....

Judging is a honor, a privilage, and a responsibility.. If a judge is afraid to chase hounds for one hour in rugged terrain, I pray he or she, never has to judge my dogs... Every state has its extream, mountains, hills, swamps or deep snow should never be a factor for a judge...lets face it we are all human, but even the Adirondacks has flat areas that hold rabbits and can be judges without too much difficulty.

Thats why its important for a club to have several user friendly cast areas to hold their trials at.. This isnt rocket science, its just good planning and common sense on the clubs part.

Expl... I judged in WV on Sunday, although they had alot of thick brush, it was not a problem to see and get score on the packs.. I loved that area and would have had no problem to judge a few more packs if needed.

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Posted by Don Wells on 09-28-2011 01:35 AM:

Re: Good solution Fred

quote:
Originally posted by MIKE CARDER
I like that but what do the rules state. I don't know? Guess I should read that.

hers a copy of the rule in the Performance Pack rules
3. JUDGES:
*c. A Performance Pack judge and or apprentice
judge will not judge their own hound,
any hound that they co-own, or a hound
that they hunt competitively. A judge may
not judge any hound owned by their immediate
family or any member of their household.

Sorry Fred rules also state cast must be drawn to minimun number of casts with a max of 5 dogs in each cast

Posted by Don Wells on 09-28-2011 01:37 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Glomski
A club should have enough judges to conduct a hunt. If that isn't the case then maybe that club should not be holding performance pack hunts. A club should have a minimum of 5 active judges. If a club does not have this then they are not ready to hold a performance pack hunt. Just my opinion.

First rule on how to conduct a Performance Pack Hunt from the PP rule book

1. Additional club requirements:

a. UKC recommends a membership that includes
enough active members to properly conduct a
large event without relying on outside help.

Posted by ohlinger on 09-28-2011 02:04 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by smokes creek
on another thought....

Judging is a honor, a privilage, and a responsibility.. If a judge is afraid to chase hounds for one hour in rugged terrain, I pray he or she, never has to judge my dogs... Every state has its extream, mountains, hills, swamps or deep snow should never be a factor for a judge...lets face it we are all human, but even the Adirondacks has flat areas that hold rabbits and can be judges without too much difficulty.

Thats why its important for a club to have several user friendly cast areas to hold their trials at.. This isnt rocket science, its just good planning and common sense on the clubs part.

Expl... I judged in WV on Sunday, although they had alot of thick brush, it was not a problem to see and get score on the packs.. I loved that area and would have had no problem to judge a few more packs if needed.

Thanks for taking the words out of my mouth!!! It is'nt rocket science and it is'nt the hardest physical task...it states in the rulebook...if you can't do it don't attempt to get a license....why would you try to hold a pp cast in a place that is sooo 'rugged' any how i'd find a spot my dog can be scored in...as far as 3 casts 3 judges each with a dog in the finals...all 3 go and score it...whats the big deal...add up the total score of all 3 judges and there is ur winner....I know I know "foul play" haha if it was the person crying's dog that won...would they still scream foul play ?

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Posted by Fred Hwkins on 09-28-2011 03:39 AM:

Don

Don,

You can not draw to a five dog cast winners group if there were only 3 casts (15 dogs)to begin with. (Elimination Style Right) I was just recommending a solution (ie Runoff or Playoff) to the question that was asked (FOOD FOR THOUGHT). People who make the winners group / pack should not have to scratch their dogs,they paid their entry fee also and UKC will recieve the$1.50 off that dog too. This was just a recommendation.

I was told couple week-ends ago that UKC was going to leave it up to the clubs to be responsible enough to hold PP events at their respective clubs. With that being stated rules should be ammended to accomidate smaller events as well as larger ones. Not everyone chases titles & prize packages, some like to run their beagles and enjoy the comradery.
Maybe some judges can't judge as much as others in certain areas but if we as judges bring back the best dog we possibly can to the rules we have to apply and what we have seen, then we done our job.

Also,
I really do want to get a chance to come out to Indiana and run someday it just hasn't worked out with my schedule yet.

JMO

Fred

PS - Good Discussion going on here with this question!!!

Posted by MIKE CARDER on 09-28-2011 03:52 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ohlinger
Thanks for taking the words out of my mouth!!! It is'nt rocket science and it is'nt the hardest physical task...it states in the rulebook...if you can't do it don't attempt to get a license....why would you try to hold a pp cast in a place that is sooo 'rugged' any how i'd find a spot my dog can be scored in...as far as 3 casts 3 judges each with a dog in the finals...all 3 go and score it...whats the big deal...add up the total score of all 3 judges and there is ur winner....I know I know "foul play" haha if it was the person crying's dog that won...would they still scream foul play ?

The big deal about it is, the rules state you can't judge your own hound. Shawn you know as well as I do someone would complain. Might even be someone not even in the cast. I agree with you, but we have to follow the rules...

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Posted by ohlinger on 09-28-2011 05:29 AM:

3 judges 3 different scores...would'nt it be nice if people who volunteer and are qualified to judge could go out and judge it fairly and bring back the best dog ????? SHOULD'NT BE A BIG DEAL KINDA SAD THAT IT IS!!!

Posted by big matt t. on 09-28-2011 07:47 AM:

how mant judges does brazil usaully have lol???????

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Posted by Cannonball08 on 09-28-2011 12:38 PM:

Yeah judging a pack for a hour isn't all that hard. I have seen Steve Morgan judge 3 in one day it may have even been 4. After entering a few Large Packs and watching the judges go for 3-6 hours, makes one feel a lot better about PP judging LOL

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