UKC Forums - Rules Question?!?!?!?!?!?!?

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Posted by Cory Highfill on 09-10-2011 03:41 PM:

Rules Question?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Stuck at work on Saturday, just needing some conversation/clarification!?!

Two scenarios, both dealing with a similar topic:

Four dog cast, all declared struck (A,B,C,D in that order), A,B,C declared treed. Five runs, cast gets to tree, starts shine time, D shows up. Coon is seen. What's D's score?

Four dog cast, A, B, C, declared struck then treed in order. D strikes with a line under it and trails into the tree before the cast arrives, but after the five has expired. Now whats his score?

Posted by Bill(Chew) on 09-10-2011 04:02 PM:

1- Dog d receives -25 strike points for coming into a closed tree and if the coon is seen and the other dogs receive plus points. He receives 0 if the tree is slick or off game is seen.

2- Dog d gets strike points deleted and nothing on tree if the tree is scored plus or circled. If the tree is slick or has off game then dog d is awarded 25 tree points and receives -25 (corrected) for registered or scratched if hunting under champiom rules.

__________________
Bill Harper
Washington, NC
252-944-5592

Posted by on 09-10-2011 04:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Bill(Chew)
1- Dog d receives -25 strike points for coming into a closed tree and if the coon is seen and the other dogs receive plus points. He receives 0 if the tree is slick or off game is seen.

2- Dog d gets strike points deleted and nothing on tree if the tree is scored plus or circled. If the tree is slick or has off game then dog d is awarded 25 tree points and receives -50 for registered of scratched if hunting under champiom rules.

On the second one Bill he would only receive 25- if the tree had off game or was slick. He was shut out on strike.

Posted by Charles Pullen on 09-10-2011 04:32 PM:

first is minus, 2nd his strike is deleted, if coon is seen he gets nothing, if its slick he gets minus 25

Posted by JiM on 09-10-2011 05:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Pullen
first is minus, 2nd his strike is deleted, if coon is seen he gets nothing, if its slick he gets minus 25

Uh no, he gets nothing either way.

__________________
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Posted by Charles Pullen on 09-10-2011 05:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Uh no, he gets nothing either way.

well Jim you are wrong again . If '' ALL 4 DOGS ARE STRUCK'' like he said then if didn't get tree before the tree is closed but came in after tree is closed and dogs treeing awarded plussed then d dog will get minus strike points . Remember he had 2 questions.

Posted by Bill(Chew) on 09-10-2011 05:24 PM:

I was wrong on strike points for question #2. I corrected it for people who read it latter. Thanks for pointing it out, I'm not perfect.

__________________
Bill Harper
Washington, NC
252-944-5592

Posted by JiM on 09-10-2011 05:25 PM:

Charles, we are talking about the second question aren't we?
"D strikes with a line under it". That means D was shutout on strike, he was handled at the tree he was shutout on and that means his strike is deleted no matter how the tree is scored. As for what his score is, we can't know that because Cory didn't tell us how the tree was scored. We just know his strike was deleted.
Now, who is wrong again?

Posted by Charles Pullen on 09-10-2011 05:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Charles, we are talking about the second question aren't we?
"D strikes with a line under it". That means D was shutout on strike, he was handled at the tree he was shutout on and that means his strike is deleted no matter how the tree is scored. As for what his score is, we can't know that because Cory didn't tell us how the tree was scored. We just know his strike was deleted.
Now, who is wrong again?

No I was giving the answers to both questions .
Corey gave the scenarios with 2 questions on that one tree.
Sorry Jim but wrong again..... THE COON WAS SEEN !!!!!

Posted by JiM on 09-10-2011 05:59 PM:

Re: Rules Question?!?!?!?!?!?!?

quote:
Originally posted by Cory Highfill
Stuck at work on Saturday, just needing some conversation/clarification!?!

Two scenarios, both dealing with a similar topic:

Four dog cast, A, B, C, declared struck then treed in order. D strikes with a line under it and trails into the tree before the cast arrives, but after the five has expired. Now whats his score?

I can't find the part where he said the coon was seen.

Posted by Charles Pullen on 09-10-2011 06:53 PM:

Re: Rules Question?!?!?!?!?!?!?

quote:
Originally posted by Cory Highfill
Stuck at work on Saturday, just needing some conversation/clarification!?!

Two scenarios, both dealing with a similar topic:

Four dog cast, all declared struck (A,B,C,D in that order), A,B,C declared treed. Five runs, cast gets to tree, starts shine time, D shows up. Coon is seen. What's D's score?

Four dog cast, A, B, C, declared struck then treed in order. D strikes with a line under it and trails into the tree before the cast arrives, but after the five has expired. Now whats his score?

COON IS SEEN , no problem Jim you probably didn't see it or thought Corey was talking about 2 different trees . He's talking about 2 scenarios for 1 tree. ( no harm done & take care)

Posted by Rip on 09-10-2011 07:00 PM:

On the first one, if the dog came in and the tree was plussed he would have his strike minused if the coon was seen AND THE DOGS TREEING AWARDED PLUS POINTS. You have to have all of it, but if you do the dog that came in late gets minus on strike.

The only way the second dog gets next available minus is if he was there at the tree treeing but not declared treed before the judge arrives.

You can't just assign him points because he came in after the judge arrives. The rules are clear on that, the dog has to be there and treeing when the judge arrives before you can assign him points.

So the way I read this one, that he came in after the judge arrived, all he can get is deleted strike cause he was shut out on strike. There is no provision to give him minus unless that was one of the more recent rule changes LOL.

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Posted by Charles Pullen on 09-10-2011 07:23 PM:

The 1st scenario is D dog is struck in before any dog is treed but is not treed within the 5 . He is comes in after the 5 . The dogs that were declared treed are awarded plus points . D is minus on track & nothing on tree cause he was struck in

Now the 2nd scenario he is shutout on strike for "that tree" but he comes in after tree is closed but wasn't declarred on that tree so therefore on "that tree " his strikes gets deleted and nothing on tree. He was shutout on strike & tree .

Posted by on 09-10-2011 09:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
On the first one, if the dog came in and the tree was plussed he would have his strike minused if the coon was seen AND THE DOGS TREEING AWARDED PLUS POINTS. You have to have all of it, but if you do the dog that came in late gets minus on strike.

The only way the second dog gets next available minus is if he was there at the tree treeing but not declared treed before the judge arrives.

You can't just assign him points because he came in after the judge arrives. The rules are clear on that, the dog has to be there and treeing when the judge arrives before you can assign him points.

So the way I read this one, that he came in after the judge arrived, all he can get is deleted strike cause he was shut out on strike. There is no provision to give him minus unless that was one of the more recent rule changes LOL.

Check it again Rip the second one has the dog there and treeing when the cast arrives.

Its realy not that hard guys no need to get in a fuss about it.

Posted by GA DAWG on 09-10-2011 09:24 PM:

Just take what they give ya. Dog D sucks. Don't need to be there no how.

__________________
Michael Ghorley

Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 09-10-2011 09:36 PM:

Re: Rules Question?!?!?!?!?!?!?

quote:
Originally posted by Cory Highfill
Stuck at work on Saturday, just needing some conversation/clarification!?!

Two scenarios, both dealing with a similar topic:

Four dog cast, all declared struck (A,B,C,D in that order), A,B,C declared treed. Five runs, cast gets to tree, starts shine time, D shows up. Coon is seen. What's D's score?

Four dog cast, A, B, C, declared struck then treed in order. D strikes with a line under it and trails into the tree before the cast arrives, but after the five has expired. Now whats his score?

Question #1 is minus strike, came in after cast arrived at tree, was not shut out on strike and coon was seen.

Question #2 ( assuming coon is seen ) strike points are deleted, dog was shut out and was at closed tree treeing before the cast arrived.

__________________
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-- Theodore Roosevelt

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Posted by Rip on 09-10-2011 09:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Joey
Check it again Rip the second one has the dog there and treeing when the cast arrives.

Its realy not that hard guys no need to get in a fuss about it.

Joey, he has to be TREEING and not declared treed when the judge arrives to get assigned points.

He just said he trailed into the tree. Didn't say he was treeing when they got there, therefore you have to score what he said and just being there isn't treeing so the dog gets deleted.

To top it off the coon was seen so there is no way you can assign a dog any points.

The rule is very specific. The dog must be at the tree, TREEING BUT NOT DECLARED TREED, when the judge arrives ON OFF GAME OR MINUS TREE. That's the only situation you can assign points.

If a coon is seen you can't assign points no matter what the dog did, if it's circle same thing. You only assign points if everything in that rule is met and that includes it having to be a slick tree or off game.

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Posted by Rip on 09-10-2011 09:54 PM:

Here are the direct quotes of the rules involved.

"5(b) No dog to receive minus points for coming into tree after Judge arrives unless
a coon is seen and the dogs treeing are awarded plus points.

4(d) If dog declared treed, after five minutes has elapsed no additional dog can be declared treed at that particular tree but if they come in to tree will get minus on track and nothing on tree if coon is seen.

4(g) Dogs treeing, but not declared treed, when Judge arrives, will be minused on tree points on “off” game or slick tree. Points will be determined by next available position in the case of one dog, or split available tree points in the case of two or more dogs. Dogs shut out on strike on slick tree or “off” game will receive minus tree points only."

5(g)Delete points: When dog that is shut out comes into tree shut out on."

So there is no way to do anything other than delete the points in dog 2's case. He wasn't said to be treeing when they arrived, even if he was it wasn't an off game or slick tree, and he has no strike to minus because he was shut out on strike.

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Posted by dmbaker3 on 09-11-2011 12:33 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
Just take what they give ya. Dog D sucks. Don't need to be there no how.

LOL!!

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Posted by Pat Bizich on 09-11-2011 02:56 AM:

Rip .I had a similar situation in which a dog was at the tree.The dog had been struck however and the tree was ruled slick.The dog was there but was not declared treed and was not treeing .He was just there.I was not carrying the card but I told the guy he would have to minus the other dog that was there too.
Now I am pretty sure Todd K has already spoke about this before and I think it may be in the Advisor but I may be wrong.I am going to get my Advisor out ,see if I can find the ruling.
A dog does not have to be treeing to be considered treed if he is at the tree when the cast arrives.
Here is my point.If the dog is at the tree and he is not treeing.He is not leaving the tree.Do you let the dog go about his merry way? Why not minus him for quitting a track and coming in?Too many scenarios.Can't delete his points . If the handler lets him continue he is basically recasting without touching his dog.Everyone is leash locked too.

Still looking .Closest I found so far was page 38 new Advisor.This isn't the ruling I was thinking but is a start.

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Posted by Rip on 09-11-2011 03:56 AM:

Pat, no the dog absolutely does have to be treeing, that is what the rule says word for word, at the tree and treeing but not declared treed. It doesn't say "dogs treed" but specifically describes dogs actively treeing but not declared treed at slick or off game trees.

You have to have all of it to assign minus points, not part of it but every little bit of it.

You can't go directly against what is written in black and white. That's a direct quote above and it is pretty clear the dog has to be treeing to be considered for assignment of points.

I'm not doubting you had it happen just like you said, but lots of things happen that aren't within the rules. If the dog isn't treeing you can't assign it any points.

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Posted by Pat Bizich on 09-11-2011 04:17 AM:

Still not found the exact thing I remember .Maybe it was on the board here.But Page 104 old Advisor does say If they were struck in and determined to be running off game,are at the tree Nite champions will be scratched.Treeing or not.The difference is being struck in or not.
So in the scenario as written what do you suggest we do with the dog that is at the tree ,not treeing but has obviously come in to the tree ? According to both Advisors he gets minused.The reason being he quit his track.Nothing else.
I guess what we need to determine by the dogs actions even though he is not physically treeing has he came into the tree and quit his track?
A lot of it boils down to using common sense.
In my nite hunt case I described the dogs were running the same track.His dog was at the tree.He wanted to delete his strike points which I would have none of that.
Little bit of failure to communicate I think.LOL

Posted by Rip on 09-11-2011 05:04 AM:

No, if he is shut out and ends up at the tree he was shut out on he can quit 15 tracks and you still can't minus him because he is protected in that he doesn't have strike points to minus cause he came into the tree he was shut out on. There is absolutely no way to legally minus the second dog because he doesn't have any strike points to minus (remember he's shut out, struck with a line under it) and he wasn't treeing AND the tree was not an off game or slick tree therefore nothing to minus.

NtCh are scratched because of running, treeing or molesting off game. If you have determined they were running it then they don't have to tree it so that's why they could be scratched, but they aren't scratched for coming into an off game tree, you have to determine that they were indeed running the off game. They are even protected if they come in after the judge arrives and blow the top out of the tree due to an Advisor ruling a couple of years ago saying that was the only time they were protected.

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Posted by Pat Bizich on 09-12-2011 03:00 AM:

Like I said I think we are failing to communicate.I think we are talking about two different things.I guess I was too busy trying to find the part in the Advisor.I am talking about a dog being at a tree and not barking.You were talking about the question that was asked to start this thread.If a dog is just there and it is carrying strike points.
I was more or less commenting on the Quote the dog has to be treeing(Barking) on off game , slick trees ,or a coon when a cast gets to the tree to get minusd on strike points.I am saying they do not have to be barking on the tree to get minused on their track "If they have been struck ".
Anyway I have found what I was looking for.Now please remember this was taken Straight from the Advisor page 34:
Question:
My second question concerns rule(4d).On a four dog cast all dogs are struck. Dogs A and C are declared treed.The cast goes to the tree after the five minutes are up.Dogs A and C are Treeing and dogs B and D are there but not barking.The coon is seen and dogs A and C are awarded plus points.The handlers voted to circle strike points for dogs B and D because they were not barking.Should they be minused for being there or do they have to be Barking?
Reply:
The answer to your second question is that dogs B and D should have received minus strike points.Rule 4(d) is very clear when it says."If they come into tree will get minus on strike and nothing on tree if coon is seen."IT HAS NEVER BEEN SAID, WRITTEN,NOR IMPLIED THAT A DOG MUST COME IN AND TREE BEFORE IT IS MINUSED.

Not trying to difficult just trying to clarify what I was saying.

Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 09-12-2011 04:34 AM:

You guys are trying to go way to in depth on two simple scenerios.

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