UKC Forums - HARRY or REBEL

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-- HARRY or REBEL (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=448406)

Posted by kenan frizzell on 09-06-2011 09:45 PM:

HARRY or REBEL

WHO DO YOU LIKE AS A STUD AND A REPRODUCER AND WHY ?

SAME BLOOD ..... SAME CROSS .... WHAT SETS ONE APART FROM ANOTHER ??

I THINK REBEL WAS JUST AS GOOD AS HARRY IMO

HE JUST WAS NOT PROMOTED LIKE HARRY WAS .... I HAVE A BUNCH OF COONERS AND BLOODLINES FROM EARLY 90'S TO NOW AND I DID NOT SEE NEAR AS MANY ADS ON REBEL AS I DID HARRY.

HARRY IS MY CHOICE I LOVE THE HARRY BLOOD , I LIKE THE GO GETTER HARRY PUT IN HIS PUPS AS I SEE HE PASSED IT DOWN TO HIS GRANDPUPS

I LIKE REBEL ALSO BECAUSE OF THE COLOR (YOU CANT BEAT A BLACK HEAD BLANKET BACK HOUND)

HARRY THROWS SOME BUT NOT AS DOMINATE AS REBEL!

SO WHAT SETS THESE 2 APART ???

IS IT ADVERTISEMENT ?
IS IT WHO OWN THEM ?
IS IT WHAT THEY PRODUCED?
IS IT CAUSE ONE WAS THE BETTER "COONDOG"?

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Posted by Virgil on 09-06-2011 10:23 PM:

Abby is what set Harry apart. Without that cross I don't think Harry will be regarded as highly as he is. I know he had some good pups out of other females but IMO that brought him a lot more notoriety than Rebel.

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Posted by Whordel on 09-06-2011 10:23 PM:

I dont know for sure but Ive always heard that hayes jr. was the better hound.I had a Rat Attack Hound that was directly out of a Dual Grand female of Rebel, he made a nice hound.Also had a nice young female that was out of a local hound directly out of old hayes but got stolen.Ive always said that the Old Hayes gave Lipper a good name.

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Posted by randall smith on 09-06-2011 10:34 PM:

Wasn't Grntch. Stylish Hammer a brother to them also.

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Posted by Virgil on 09-06-2011 10:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by randall smith
Wasn't Grntch. Stylish Hammer a brother to them also.

If your talking about GRNTCH Davis Stylish Harry's Hammer is out of the Harry and Abby cross.

If your talking about a different Stylish Hammer then I don't know.

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Posted by Mark Hale on 09-06-2011 10:40 PM:

i like mchanns stylish hammer better

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Posted by randall smith on 09-06-2011 10:53 PM:

Grntch. Mcmahan's Stylish Hammer is a brother to Harry and Rebel,also the sire of MR.Cleans dam.

Posted by kenan frizzell on 09-07-2011 01:01 AM:

OK ANOTHER QUESTION I HAVE .

WHAT WOULD CATCH YOU THE MOST ? AND WHAT % DO YOU THINK MOST HUNTERS NOTICE?

SEEING NICE ADS IN COONER OR BLOODLINES / COON HUNTING FORUMS ?

OR

SEEING A DOG WIN CONSISTENTLY ?

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

NOW WHAT IF THIS DOG HAS NOTHING HARDLY OF A PEDIGREE BUT HERE IS ANOTHER ONE WHO HAS A OUTSTANDING PEDIGREE THAT YOU HAVE NOT SEEN WIN NOTHING OR EVEN HEARD OF WINNING ANYTHING "BUT" HE IS ALL IN THE MAGS AND FORUMS ? AND HE IS SHOWING HE IS REPRODUCING.

WHICH WOULD YOU BREED TO QUICKER & (HONESTY PLEASE)

"DISCLAIMER" I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT ANYONES DOGS , I HAVE ASKED MY SELF THIS AND JUST CURIOUS TO SEE IF WE ALL THINK SIMILAR.

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Posted by thebigcat454545 on 09-07-2011 12:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Virgil
Abby is what set Harry apart. Without that cross I don't think Harry will be regarded as highly as he is. I know he had some good pups out of other females but IMO that brought him a lot more notoriety than Rebel.

I think there's alot of truth in this statment.

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Posted by kenan frizzell on 09-07-2011 05:11 PM:

ANYMORE ???

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Posted by Jamie Thurman on 09-07-2011 05:37 PM:

when looking for a harry breed dog i always try to get one that goes back to the harry x abby imo it was one of the best crosses made and all my hounds go back to it but i also like the rebel x jodie

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Posted by LostHeritageKennel on 09-07-2011 05:49 PM:

I like the Rebel dogs better myself. Seems like they were more balanced dogs and not as crazy acting as the Harry dogs. But I had a female out of Hayes and a Harry bitch that I liked just as well as the female I had off of Rebel. They were just two completely different styles of dog. JMO.

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Posted by JiM on 09-07-2011 06:15 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by LostHeritageKennel
I like the Rebel dogs better myself. Seems like they were more balanced dogs and not as crazy acting as the Harry dogs. But I had a female out of Hayes and a Harry bitch that I liked just as well as the female I had off of Rebel. They were just two completely different styles of dog. JMO.

That is about the same thing Mr Ball told me about them. He has always said the Harry pups are crazy kennel barkers, high strung and require HARD hunting to keep them hunted down. He told me the average coon hunter didn't hunt hard enough for a Harry pup. He said the Rebel pups were far more laid back, easier to train, easier to live with and better for most coon hunters. Based on what he told me, we bought Harry semen.

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Posted by Virgil on 09-07-2011 06:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
That is about the same thing Mr Ball told me about them. He has always said the Harry pups are crazy kennel barkers, high strung and require HARD hunting to keep them hunted down. He told me the average coon hunter didn't hunt hard enough for a Harry pup.

I've got a pup out of Cutter and if you take away the barking he fits that description perfectly. I honestly don't believe he could be hunted down if I hunted him from sundown to sun up 7 nights a week. He does bark some but I wouldn't call it crazy.

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Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 09-07-2011 07:53 PM:

You can call it what you want, but simple truth is the advertising is what makes alot of dogs. Timothy Ball is one of the best promoters in the coondog world. He has written adds for some of the best around. Harry was crossed with Abby, Peg, and several other females with awesome results. I wouldn't just hold it to the Abby cross that made him. It was Timothy Ball that made Harry. Rebel could have been and probably was as good a reproducer as Harry, but advertising and availability. Look at it this way, Bean, Cash, Ruger, and Stretch are all out of the same cross. Bean is being bred so much more then the other three. Why? Tim Osborne is no Timothy Ball but he has promoted Bean alot more then the other three. Would one of his brothers produce better then him? Maybe, but they will never have the number of pups on the ground due to lack of advertising. Just an example of how it works. Advertising sales the product, always has, always will. Word of mouth can only travel so far, pretty color adds get your attention, and internet is the best of both worlds.

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Posted by kenan frizzell on 09-10-2011 06:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by nccoonhunter197
You can call it what you want, but simple truth is the advertising is what makes alot of dogs. Timothy Ball is one of the best promoters in the coondog world. He has written adds for some of the best around. Harry was crossed with Abby, Peg, and several other females with awesome results. I wouldn't just hold it to the Abby cross that made him. It was Timothy Ball that made Harry. Rebel could have been and probably was as good a reproducer as Harry, but advertising and availability. Look at it this way, Bean, Cash, Ruger, and Stretch are all out of the same cross. Bean is being bred so much more then the other three. Why? Tim Osborne is no Timothy Ball but he has promoted Bean alot more then the other three. Would one of his brothers produce better then him? Maybe, but they will never have the number of pups on the ground due to lack of advertising. Just an example of how it works. Advertising sales the product, always has, always will. Word of mouth can only travel so far, pretty color adds get your attention, and internet is the best of both worlds.

PERFECTLY SAID

THIS IS MY SAME OPINION AS WELL

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Posted by JiM on 09-10-2011 08:47 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by nccoonhunter197
You can call it what you want, but simple truth is the advertising is what makes alot of dogs. Timothy Ball is one of the best promoters in the coondog world. He has written adds for some of the best around. Harry was crossed with Abby, Peg, and several other females with awesome results. I wouldn't just hold it to the Abby cross that made him. It was Timothy Ball that made Harry. Rebel could have been and probably was as good a reproducer as Harry, but advertising and availability. Look at it this way, Bean, Cash, Ruger, and Stretch are all out of the same cross. Bean is being bred so much more then the other three. Why? Tim Osborne is no Timothy Ball but he has promoted Bean alot more then the other three. Would one of his brothers produce better then him? Maybe, but they will never have the number of pups on the ground due to lack of advertising. Just an example of how it works. Advertising sales the product, always has, always will. Word of mouth can only travel so far, pretty color adds get your attention, and internet is the best of both worlds.

All of that may be true but it does nothing to answer the original question. The two dogs never gave a hoot about the advertising and they most definitely were two very different reproducers and threw pups that had very different traits. Those differences had nothing to do with anything written or spoken by man or men.

Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 09-10-2011 09:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
All of that may be true but it does nothing to answer the original question. The two dogs never gave a hoot about the advertising and they most definitely were two very different reproducers and threw pups that had very different traits. Those differences had nothing to do with anything written or spoken by man or men.

Jim, that is my answer to the question. To say one dog produces better then another by numbers is not accurate. If you match two dogs up and one has two to three times as many pups on the ground, then his numbers should be better. The only way to say one dog is a better reproducer then another is to put equal numbers of pups from the same females into the same hands, trained the same way, and hunted the same places. It's called a control. I understand not all dogs produce the same traits, and that means some people will like pups from one stud when they won't like pups from the other stud. As far as answering the original question, the first answer I gave was my answer to his question.

SO WHAT SETS THESE 2 APART ???

IS IT ADVERTISEMENT ?
IS IT WHO OWN THEM ?
IS IT WHAT THEY PRODUCED?
IS IT CAUSE ONE WAS THE BETTER "COONDOG"?

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Posted by JiM on 09-10-2011 11:19 PM:

Forget the numbers Brian, I don't don't put much into numbers anyway. My point is that the two dogs apparently from all I can find out put very different types of pups on the ground. As different as they are, I figure there is not much chance they would both suit the same guy.
As for better? Better is in the eye of the beholder. Neither is prolly "better". But they are certainly different.

Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 09-11-2011 12:19 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Forget the numbers Brian, I don't don't put much into numbers anyway. My point is that the two dogs apparently from all I can find out put very different types of pups on the ground. As different as they are, I figure there is not much chance they would both suit the same guy.
As for better? Better is in the eye of the beholder. Neither is prolly "better". But they are certainly different.

I agree,,,,,,,,,,,different traits from full littermates is not uncommon and is usually the norm. The only reason I think Harry was "more popular" then Rebel was due to the promotion of the individual dog. I have seen some nice dogs out of both. It would be nice to see a stud off of Harry bred to a female off of Rebel. Cousin cross.................I think it would work out nice.

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Posted by thebigcat454545 on 09-11-2011 01:52 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Forget the numbers Brian, I don't don't put much into numbers anyway. My point is that the two dogs apparently from all I can find out put very different types of pups on the ground. As different as they are, I figure there is not much chance they would both suit the same guy.
As for better? Better is in the eye of the beholder. Neither is prolly "better". But they are certainly different.

One out of each would suit me, if you bred them to the correct female. Female has alot to do with it. Ask Timothy.

Posted by monstermash on 09-11-2011 02:13 PM:

ME ,i like REBEL,i have 2 semen pups off rebel ,love their temperment ,smart and not crazy in the kennel...i also have a granddaughter off harry [stylish rube].like her real good to. but i love the color that rebel buts in them...i've read somewhere that rebel was the better coonhound...

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Posted by mike fleming on 09-11-2011 04:42 PM:

I'm trying a cross of my Mojo female.Sty Hammer = HarryXAbby J-Lo =Rat Attack X Sty Trixie Dam Booger HollowDixie =Cutter =HarryX Abby Sty Tina Turner= Sty Harry X Crooked Creek Misty This MoJo female goes back to Harry 4 times up close and the Rat Attack/Abby 3 times I am crossing her with a Harry Bawls pup.Harry Bawls =Sty HarryX Browns Little Peg.Peg =Pulpwoods Image X Browns Peg the dam is Stylish Snug=Rat Attack X Sty Cloey.Cloey is off Stylish Clover X Wipeout Kate littermate to Wipeout Zack {Moose}she is in heat now all together Sty Harry upclose 5 times Rat/Abby 4 times with a shot of Sty Clover and Wipeout Kate/Moose.

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Posted by Travis Brown on 09-11-2011 04:50 PM:

Reproducing is what set them apart. Harry threw a harder hunting, better trackdog, easier to get started treeing pup, and more intelligence. I know some will tell you that littermates will throw the same type of pup but I have found that is not the case. Both were well promoted as well as some other males from the cross but Harry out reproduced them all. Oh and Rebel did throw prettier colored pups and he did put a good mouth on them. Rebel did have one good cross out of one of the Abbott females but other than that his good pups were pretty rare.

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Posted by JiM on 09-11-2011 04:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Travis Brown
Reproducing is what set them apart. Harry threw a harder hunting, better trackdog, easier to get started treeing pup, and more intelligence. I know some will tell you that littermates will throw the same type of pup but I have found that is not the case. Both were well promoted as well as some other males from the cross but Harry out reproduced them all. Oh and Rebel did throw prettier colored pups and he did put a good mouth on them. Rebel did have one good cross out of one of the Abbott females but other than that his good pups were pretty rare.

There yah go, an opinion that is flat backed up by his coondogs and what he has actually produced over the years. For me, that carries weight.

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