UKC Forums - Nite Hunt Rule Question

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Posted by kycooner1 on 08-13-2011 04:01 PM:

Nite Hunt Rule Question

Heres what happened last nite,,I want to know the correct way of handling this If it were to ever arise Again
Dog A is treed for 125 Dog B is treed for 75 Dog C gets Split and is treed for 125 only about 1 minute has gone by on the first dogs tree,,but since all dogs were declared treed we start going to them, About 1 minute going towards them Dog A moves to dog C trees. Handler of Dog A Minus him and trees him back in for 75 with Dog C.

Hers the Question ,,when all dogs are declared treed,,does it close the trees.

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Posted by Virgil on 08-13-2011 04:23 PM:

My guess would be no but that is an interesting question. I say no because I have never heard or read where all dogs being treed automatically closes all trees.

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Posted by kycooner1 on 08-13-2011 05:35 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Virgil
My guess would be no but that is an interesting question. I say no because I have never heard or read where all dogs being treed automatically closes all trees.

We couldn;t find it either in the rules,,but If all dogs are treed,,you don't have to wait the 5 minutes..So that is like a closed tree..

I don't know,,and it didn't effect the outcome of the cast,,but still curious

Posted by Richard Lambert on 08-13-2011 05:39 PM:

Re: Nite Hunt Rule Question

quote:
Originally posted by kycooner1
Hers the Question ,,when all dogs are declared treed,,does it close the trees.

Yes, you answered your own question. "All dogs are declared treed". Dog A can not be treed back in on C's tree. He would have to go to a seperate tree before he could be treed back in.

Posted by truly on 08-13-2011 05:40 PM:

When all dogs are declared treed then the tree is closed and you go in and handle. A dog that leaves one tree to go to another can not be retreed because trees are closed. Dog A would have been minus on tree, and gotten his strike awarded according to what was in the other tree- minus if there was a coon, circle or minus if appropriate. No way for that dog to get tree points though.

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 08-13-2011 07:29 PM:

Re: Nite Hunt Rule Question

quote:
Originally posted by kycooner1
Heres what happened last nite,,I want to know the correct way of handling this If it were to ever arise Again
Dog A is treed for 125 Dog B is treed for 75 Dog C gets Split and is treed for 125 only about 1 minute has gone by on the first dogs tree,,but since all dogs were declared treed we start going to them, About 1 minute going towards them Dog A moves to dog C trees. Handler of Dog A Minus him and trees him back in for 75 with Dog C.

Hers the Question ,,when all dogs are declared treed,,does it close the trees.

once all dogs are declared treed, all trees are closed.

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 08-13-2011 07:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by truly
When all dogs are declared treed then the tree is closed and you go in and handle. A dog that leaves one tree to go to another can not be retreed because trees are closed. Dog A would have been minus on tree, and gotten his strike awarded according to what was in the other tree- minus if there was a coon, circle or minus if appropriate. No way for that dog to get tree points though.

dog A would also take an editinal 125- for being retread. because if you tree after the trees are closed, the judge has to put you down for 125 regardless where your dog is at.

Posted by GA DAWG on 08-13-2011 07:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Dogs
dog A would also take an editinal 125- for being retread. because if you tree after the trees are closed, the judge has to put you down for 125 regardless where your dog is at.

Yep.

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Posted by amazingcursouth on 08-13-2011 07:59 PM:

your dead on Dan

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Posted by truly on 08-13-2011 08:44 PM:

Wouldn't the judge actually have to refuse the call?
Problem here is that if the judge didn't know enough to tell handler of dog A that the trees were closed already and that he could not retree him, he would probably not know that he could not accept the call, or what to do if he did accept the call.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 08-13-2011 08:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by truly
Wouldn't the judge actually have to refuse the call?
Problem here is that if the judge didn't know enough to tell handler of dog A that the trees were closed already and that he could not retree him, he would probably not know that he could not accept the call, or what to do if he did accept the call.

Maybe the handler should know enough to know he cant retree unless he goes in for 125 saying his dog is split

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Posted by JiM on 08-13-2011 09:02 PM:

truely, you were right before they passed rule 4(k).

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 08-13-2011 09:49 PM:

I can't believe that there is a rule question that everyone agrees on! I saw this happen on a cast at The Grand American one year. The judge allowed him to tree his dog and I questioned it.

Posted by kycooner1 on 08-13-2011 09:55 PM:

The Judge was dog A, I was Dog C ,,and brought this up..I won the cast..when i got back to the Clubhouse the MOH said the 5 was still running,and he didn't need to be minused,If this call would of decided the cast ,,i was prepared to send it to UKC in writing, but as I stated this tree did not effect the outcome of the cast.

i thought I was rite ,,saying the trees were closed ,once all dogs were declared treed,, I still hope Alan ,comments on this Monday Morning.

Posted by huntinafterdark on 08-14-2011 03:40 AM:

Ok, rule 4 C. states that a dog will receive minus if dog is declared treed and dog leaves the tree which dog A did just that.. Thats the first part.. The next part of it says that if the dog returns to the tree within the five minutes he will receive the next available position unless all of the dogs have been declared teed which they were, so the dog cannot be declared treed again. If a judge would minus a handler for treeing a dog on a closed tree, there would have to be at least one dog still trailing.. The only minus that the dog could receive is covered in 4 D. If dog declared treed after the five minutes has elapsed no additional dog can be treed on that tree, but if they come in, will receive minus on track only.if coon is seen.. So there is a few things that need to be taken into accountability. Was a coon seen? and what strike position did dog A have? I'll just assume that dog a had 1 strike 1st tree and give the dogs the benefit of the doubt that a coon was seen.. In that case dog A would receive minus 225.. He gets minus 125 on the first tree that he left and gets minus on his first strike for coming into a closed tree after all dogs have been declared treed.. And, this dog gets handled until both of the trees are scored. Someone is going to say this is wrong because 4 K says that a call will be accepted if a dog trees after the tree is closed, but if the dog is on a closed tree when the judge arrives will receive minus on tree points and strike points will be scored according to rule 4 D. This rule does not apply being that all dogs have been declared treed in accordance with 4 C.

Posted by JiM on 08-14-2011 03:51 AM:

Well you're wrong. 4(k) applies ANYTIME a dog is declared treed and all are trees closed.

Dog A is minused 125 for leaving his tree, minused 125 under 4(k) when he retreed him and handled him with dog C who's treed was closed when dog A was retreed and also minused his strike points if dog C had a coon.

Posted by l.lyle on 08-14-2011 04:44 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
Maybe the handler should know enough to know he cant retree unless he goes in for 125 saying his dog is split

Now that's funny!

Posted by Jack Bingham on 08-14-2011 05:04 PM:

UNBELIEVABLE that some people are so far off base with a simple rule that any novice should know.

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 08-14-2011 07:19 PM:

i know of one guy that got screwed out of getting his dog qualified last night because the judge didn't know this rule, and he didn't have 20 bucks in his pocket to question the call.

Posted by kycooner1 on 08-14-2011 07:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Dogs
i know of one guy that got screwed out of getting his dog qualified last night because the judge didn't know this rule, and he didn't have 20 bucks in his pocket to question the call.

They had a Hunt Director at a world qualifier,,seems they would have a MOH for a RQE

Posted by JiM on 08-14-2011 08:12 PM:

They do require a MOH at qualifiers but questions to the MOH require a $20.00 deposit at all RQE's.

Posted by huntinafterdark on 08-14-2011 10:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Well you're wrong. 4(k) applies ANYTIME a dog is declared treed and all are trees closed.

Dog A is minused 125 for leaving his tree, minused 125 under 4(k) when he retreed him and handled him with dog C who's treed was closed when dog A was retreed and also minused his strike points if dog C had a coon.

So, you're saying that you can call a dog split treed on a tree that is already being called split treed? Who is he split treed from?

Posted by l.lyle on 08-14-2011 11:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by huntinafterdark
So, you're saying that you can call a dog split treed on a tree that is already being called split treed? Who is he split treed from?

He was split from hisownself. He done split from dis tree so
to speack, to get treed on dat tree don'tya see? while still holding a first on deud'n. He said to hisself, it bees time to split from hyar.

No way I would award more than 1/2 points to a bi polar, schitzophrenic type a dog . But , as a non-hunting judge, I realize ya'll would half to pay extry for my evaluation and diagnosis.

Posted by BOOBOOBRADY on 08-14-2011 11:18 PM:

That's a rule I don't like If you know they are split a separate 5 should be started on all dogs split !!!

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Come on people drop you're ego and admitt you just got beat, made a bad call, dog made a mistake, what ever.You can't get cheated that much

Posted by JiM on 08-14-2011 11:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by huntinafterdark
So, you're saying that you can call a dog split treed on a tree that is already being called split treed? Who is he split treed from?

I'm not saying anything, the rulebook says if you tree your dog at a closed tree, your dog goes on the card for 125 and if your dogs is handled at that closed tree, your 125 is minused. Plain and simple, no if, ands or buts about it.

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