UKC Forums - question on scoring tree

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Posted by Kevin Bowles on 08-07-2011 10:22 PM:

question on scoring tree

was in 4 dog cast. dog A was split treed behind us, dog b and c were treed together in front of us across field. dog d was still out trailing. there was 50 seconds difference between the 2 trees. when dog a tree was closed I sent handlers of b and c to their dogs to handle them while I went with handler of dog a. I told the guys to come to his tree so we could score it, since the majority of cast is needed, but they said it takes the majority of however many cast members are there. Is that right or should at least one of the guys come to the tree to score it, since 3 would be the majority number in a 4 dog cast?

Posted by get rythym on 08-07-2011 10:26 PM:

dog d and c would go handle their dogs and go to dog A's tree

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Posted by ssgied on 08-07-2011 11:03 PM:

All handlers must be present to score,b&c can go handle their dogs,but must come back to dog A's tree before any scoring can be done.

Posted by Rip on 08-07-2011 11:25 PM:

All handlers don't have to be present to score the tree.

But a MAJORITY of the cast must be to plus or minus the tree. The number for majority doesn't change. If it's a 4 dog cast the number needed to score the tree is 3 so if 3 of the 4 are present and all 3 see the coon then it can be plussed without the 4th cast member being present.

If it's a 3 dog cast then it takes 2.

So you can't go by the number at the tree. It's the number in the cast.

So you would have been wrong to have scored it plus with anything less than 3 votes to plus the tree in a 4 dog cast, no matter how many cast members were at that tree.

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Posted by ssgied on 08-08-2011 12:25 AM:

The entire cast must score each tree,any handler failing to go to and score each tree will be scratched.The rule 3a says the majority of the cast,not the majority of those present,also on page 24 of the advisor.

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 08-08-2011 12:29 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ssgied
The entire cast must score each tree,any handler failing to go to and score each tree will be scratched.The rule 3a says the majority of the cast,not the majority of those present,also on page 24 of the advisor.

Your WRONG. This is why arguments start in a cast. In a 4 dog cast the majority is 3. In a 3 dog the majority is 2. Its VERY SIMPLE.

Posted by jculler8 on 08-08-2011 12:38 AM:

I was on a cast in which something similar happened to a young man in the zones where it cost him a trip to the World Hunt finals by not using good judgement as a judge. If it's me, I want the ENTIRE cast there scoring my tree. No if's, and's or but's about it!

There is nothing in the rules in which it states anything about a MAJORITY and scoring a tree. It only states that a majority must see or not see a coon. In this particular case, the majority of the cast at the tree being scored is 3 and whoever got screwed is SOL. Nobody can be scratched, but it if were me, I'd be asking for a better judge after the question was answered at the club house. The only way a handler can be scratched is if he refuses to score the tree when asked to do so by the judge.

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 08-08-2011 12:50 AM:

I agree Joe, if it were my dog I would want all cast members to score the tree but sometimes when dogs are all split up its just not real realistic to ask all members to be at every tree.

Posted by Rip on 08-08-2011 01:01 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ssgied
The entire cast must score each tree,any handler failing to go to and score each tree will be scratched.The rule 3a says the majority of the cast,not the majority of those present,also on page 24 of the advisor.

You are misinterpreting two different things.

Yes it takes the majority of the cast to score every tree. The majority of a 4 dog cast is 3. The majority of a 3 dog cast is 2 and the majority of a 2 dog cast is 2. That majority DOES NOT change regardless of how many people in the cast are at the tree in question. In other words if you are in a 4 dog cast then the number needed to score a tree plus or minus is 3 no matter if there is only 2 there at the tree the majority is still 3.

The majority is the only number REQUIRED to be there to score a tree plus or minus. In other words only 3 cast members of a 4 dog cast can all see the coon and score it plus without the 4th member ever going to the tree. That is 100% legal because the majority of the cast saw the coon. It wouldn't matter what the 4th guy voted or said, the majority had seen the coon. That's why someone can score a tree while another is tying a split treed dog. The only requirement is that the majority of the cast vote plus.

Now as a rule I try to avoid this because personally I want everyone to stay together, and the rules do state the cast is to stay together unless given permission to go tie a split dog. But when someone goes to tie that dog the cast doesn't have to wait on him to get back to score the tree provided a majority agrees to score it that way.

There is nothing that says every member of a cast must be present to score the tree.

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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 08-08-2011 01:54 AM:

i dont get it the only time a cast can split is when
dogs are split treed so if 2 leave the cast and you
have 2 left on the cast how many is the majority
2?so if 2 vote plus what do you have to ???
what rule are you guys using

Posted by Rip on 08-08-2011 02:00 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Lee Currens Jr.
i dont get it the only time a cast can split is when
dogs are split treed so if 2 leave the cast and you
have 2 left on the cast how many is the majority
2?so if 2 vote plus what do you have to ???
what rule are you guys using

Lee you can't plus a tree in a 4 dog cast with 2 votes, no matter what. In that case you have to wait until somebody comes back to get to a majority, which is 3. It doesn't matter who whent where, the majority of a 4 dog cast is 3.

The rule is that it takes a majority of the cast to plus or minus a tree. The majority of the CAST doesn't change based on who happens to be at the tree. That stays the same the entire hunt or until someone officially leaves the cast.

So if one person in a 4 dog cast is off tying another dog then the 3 that are left can plus or minus the tree based on what they vote provided all 3 vote the same.

Anything less than 3 won't work because it takes 3 to be a majority in a 4 dog cast regardless of where in the woods those members are at any particular time, the majority is 3.

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Posted by JiM on 08-08-2011 02:07 AM:

It's hard to believe so many could read 3(a) and 4(b) and still not understand this one.

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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 08-08-2011 02:52 AM:

18 (4) majority of cast rules.Each handler must vote or
their dog will be scratched

Posted by JiM on 08-08-2011 02:56 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Lee Currens Jr.
18 (4) majority of cast rules.Each handler must vote or
their dog will be scratched

Classic case of using a rule in the wrong situation. 18(b)-4 refers to a judges decision being questioned and put to a cast vote. 18(b) doesn't apply to scoring trees with a hunting judge.

Posted by Rip on 08-08-2011 02:58 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Lee Currens Jr.
18 (4) majority of cast rules.Each handler must vote or
their dog will be scratched

That rule is specifically for questions, not scoring a tree. You have to take the proper rule for the situation. You can't just pull out a rule from a place where it is talking about one thing and apply it to something else. Also, if there is a specific rule for a specific situation then that rule takes precedence over any general rule that may say different.

The specific rules for scoring plus or minus are listed above by Jim. It takes a majority of the cast. It does NOT take all the cast, just the majority.

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Posted by ssgied on 08-08-2011 03:05 AM:

I may be wrong as was stated earlier,but answer me this.If only three members of a four dog cast score a tree,and one handler asks for a vote,then what?Rule 18 says all remaining cast members must vote or be scratched,so if one handler didn't score the tree how is he going to vote?Read page 24 of the advisor.

Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 08-08-2011 03:06 AM:

so what do you do with them if they want come to your tree?

Posted by JiM on 08-08-2011 03:13 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ssgied
I may be wrong as was stated earlier,but answer me this.If only three members of a four dog cast score a tree,and one handler asks for a vote,then what?Rule 18 says all remaining cast members must vote or be scratched,so if one handler didn't score the tree how is he going to vote?Read page 24 of the advisor.

You can't ask for a vote on the vote!!!
The 3 cast members vote on scoring the tree. Anyone who doesn't agree with that vote can place a question the card at that time. The MOH will settle it.

Posted by JiM on 08-08-2011 03:22 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Lee Currens Jr.
so what do you do with them if they want come to your tree?

I believe if the judge asks a cast member to return to the tree to score it, that cast member must return to the tree or be scratched for refusing to score the tree.
This business of scoring trees with a majority of the cast present and not all members of the cast is allowed but discouraged by UKC. And if the judge says everyone is scoring this tree and someone refuses, that person is done. I'm purty sure the judge has the authority to require all cast members to score the tree although , in the interest of saving time, you seldom see them do that.

Posted by Rip on 08-08-2011 03:30 AM:

Yep Jim, that would fall under the "implied scratch". The judge requested you to do something reasonable and within the rules as a cast member and you refuse to do it you can be scratched.

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Posted by cbcoonskinner on 08-08-2011 03:33 AM:

Shine time should not start untill you have the majority of the cast at the tree to score it also/

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Posted by ssgied on 08-08-2011 03:36 AM:

I said what if a handler asks for a vote,I didn't say what situation they were voting on,alot of things can happen at the tree.

Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 08-08-2011 03:53 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
I believe if the judge asks a cast member to return to the tree to score it, that cast member must return to the tree or be scratched for refusing to score the tree.
This business of scoring trees with a majority of the cast present and not all members of the cast is allowed but discouraged by UKC. And if the judge says everyone is scoring this tree and someone refuses, that person is done. I'm purty sure the judge has the authority to require all cast members to score the tree although , in the interest of saving time, you seldom see them do that.

i thought he may have with drew then but i knew you were going to get them for sportsman ship are delay of cast.

Posted by Rip on 08-08-2011 03:55 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ssgied
I said what if a handler asks for a vote,I didn't say what situation they were voting on,alot of things can happen at the tree.

Then you ask for the vote and if the 4th persons vote means anything then he will have to give a vote when he gets back up with the cast.

You can play what if all you want but the bottom line is that you do NOT have to have everyone present to score a tree, but you DO have to have a majority to plus or minus that tree and it is the majority of the cast, not the majority of who is there.

It's not ideal but it is legal.

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Posted by jculler8 on 08-08-2011 02:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
Lee you can't plus a tree in a 4 dog cast with 2 votes, no matter what. In that case you have to wait until somebody comes back to get to a majority, which is 3. It doesn't matter who whent where, the majority of a 4 dog cast is 3.

The rule is that it takes a majority of the cast to plus or minus a tree. The majority of the CAST doesn't change based on who happens to be at the tree. That stays the same the entire hunt or until someone officially leaves the cast.

So if one person in a 4 dog cast is off tying another dog then the 3 that are left can plus or minus the tree based on what they vote provided all 3 vote the same.

Anything less than 3 won't work because it takes 3 to be a majority in a 4 dog cast regardless of where in the woods those members are at any particular time, the majority is 3.

Rip is correct here, as well as Jim.

Jim you are correct in stating that a handler can be scratched for refusing to score a tree.

I had a cast a few months ago where a man withdrew his dog just as the dogs were coming treed. It was raining and he was upset that some things were not going his way. As judge, I requested that he score the tree with the remaining 3 cast members before he left the cast and went home. He left, without scoring the tree and signing the card in an attempt to have the cast scratched for not having his signature on the card. The MOH told me at the end of the night, had he not signed the card, and wasn't scratched for his refusal, our card could have been thrown out.

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