UKC Forums - another rule?

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Posted by tripple river on 11-29-2010 03:59 AM:

another rule?

hunted against a dog that started barking as soon as it was cut loose & never stoped until it was pulled off a tree.my ? is can a dog like this be minused for babbling.the dog was never struck before the minute but immediatly after the minute was up.

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Posted by jabrown on 11-29-2010 04:30 AM:

The answer to your question is no, a dog cannot be scratched for babbling. A dog can be minused for babbling though. See rule 4 (h) Dog(s) declared struck and determined to be babbling
will be minused their strike points. Babbling is
defined as when a dog opens three times or has been
struck where no track is evident.

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Posted by on 11-29-2010 06:38 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jabrown
The answer to your question is no, a dog cannot be scratched for babbling. A dog can be minused for babbling though. See rule 4 (h) Dog(s) declared struck and determined to be babbling
will be minused their strike points. Babbling is
defined as when a dog opens three times or has been
struck where no track is evident.

It would still be tough to minus one if they are putting a tree at the end of it...

Posted by JiM on 11-29-2010 02:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tully
It would still be tough to minus one if they are putting a tree at the end of it...

I disagree. One has nothing to do with the other.
The short answer to the question is yes, absolutely you can.

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Posted by jabrown on 11-29-2010 03:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
I disagree. One has nothing to do with the other.
The short answer to the question is yes, absolutely you can.

Jim, I'm assuming that you are saying yes, you can minus a dog for doing what tripple river described. In fact he originally asked if the dog could have been scratched for what he was doing. While writing this I see that he edited his post to read minused instead of scratched. Makes more sense now.

__________________
As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Joshua 24:15

Josh Brown
The Barber Shop
Cuba, MO
573-205-1391

Posted by JiM on 11-29-2010 03:32 PM:

Yep.

Posted by tripple river on 11-29-2010 03:54 PM:

is there anything that backs up the minus.the local guys ive talked to think there is nothing you can do i would like to know how to handle this when it happens again.some dogs are trained to do this so they always get 1st strike.i did edit my post to read correctly sorry for the confusion.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 11-29-2010 04:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by tripple river
is there anything that backs up the minus.the local guys ive talked to think there is nothing you can do i would like to know how to handle this when it happens again.some dogs are trained to do this so they always get 1st strike.i did edit my post to read correctly sorry for the confusion.

I don't think they are trained to do it. They do it naturaly. People just don't train them not to do it and it is pretty easy to fix when they are young and allmost imposible to fix with out messing them up when they get older.
As far as the rules and getting anything done about one in a hunt(good luck). It is hard to prove and most won't call them on it.

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Posted by jabrown on 11-29-2010 04:18 PM:

This is a call that is left up to the judge, but a cast is not at the mercy of a judge. If you feel that this is a situation that needs to be adressed, simply question it the next time the judge accepts the strike call on said dog and let the cast decide, if it doesn't go in your favor, let them explain their decision to a MOH.

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As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Joshua 24:15

Josh Brown
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Cuba, MO
573-205-1391

Posted by JiM on 11-29-2010 05:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jabrown
This is a call that is left up to the judge, but a cast is not at the mercy of a judge. If you feel that this is a situation that needs to be adressed, simply question it the next time the judge accepts the strike call on said dog and let the cast decide, if it doesn't go in your favor, let them explain their decision to a MOH.

Exactly!
Minus is just like a lawsuit, anyone can sue anyone for anything. It may or may not hold up in court, it may be thrown out. But anyone can sue anyone.

Any judgre can make the call and it will take a majority to overule that call. And if it is overuled, the judge can take it to the MOH.
Any cast member can do the very same thing. Ask for a vote to minus, if you don't get it minused you can still take it to the MOH.

You would be very suprised how just asking for that vote can reshape a handlers desire to strike a babbler.

Posted by tripple river on 11-29-2010 05:44 PM:

thank you for your replies i think i have a grip on how to handle it next time.i prolly would have forgot about this hunt but after it was over he told me i should train my dogs to do this then went into explaining how it is done.

__________________
Jason Brown

Posted by on 11-29-2010 08:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
I disagree. One has nothing to do with the other.
The short answer to the question is yes, absolutely you can.

Don't get me wrong I do not own, and will not own a babbler, but I haven't figured out yet how you can tell where there's a track evident if the dog moves out, and gets treed?

Posted by cbcoonskinner on 11-29-2010 09:36 PM:

Be a guide and turn the dogs loose in an open field if dog is running with his head up and barking every breath and no other dogs are not it's evident he's babbling in my opinion.

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Posted by JiM on 11-29-2010 09:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tully
Don't get me wrong I do not own, and will not own a babbler, but I haven't figured out yet how you can tell where there's a track evident if the dog moves out, and gets treed?

I use my ears.....and my 40 some years of listening to coonhounds work which may not be worth diddleysquat but I listen and make my judgements based on what i believe. And no, I don't give an ounce of consideration to what I can prove because no judge is required to prove babbling.

Posted by Big Bawler on 11-30-2010 12:00 AM:

i disagree...a judge would be assuming no track was evident and you cant assume anything...the key word bein evident..wich has the root word of evidence..prove it

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Posted by JiM on 11-30-2010 12:06 AM:

Well all that root word stuff may work in The Peoples Court but it won't fly when it gets to UKC. I'm positive UKC is not ever gonna require any level of proof when it comes to judgement calls. They only ask for good judgement to be used.

Posted by on 11-30-2010 12:12 AM:

My only problem

With someone's expert OPINION is that I have personally been minused for striking my dog HONESTLY within the minute.
In the judge's OPINION she should have continued barking non stop like a babbling idiot throughout the minute. 38 seconds of silence before she opened 75 yards deeper deemed it to be a babble...

Posted by JiM on 11-30-2010 12:29 AM:

There are very few things that can be proven in nite hunts. Really, almost nothing can be proven. Is it even possible to prove a treed dog has barked away from the tree? Can you prove that was your dog that struck and not mine? How do you prove it?
The words "prove it" simply do not have a place in the game of nite hunt competition.

Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 11-30-2010 12:58 AM:

Jim it seems like we have had enough rain we could
walk dwn to the creek and see what tracks were there.
i dont know that is what they were talking last winter
it does say any off game.

Posted by Big Bawler on 11-30-2010 01:48 AM:

im not argueing that fact at all.im just saying how can you minus a dog when you "think" its babbling and cant prove its not running a track.

__________________
Brad Blakeman
NORTHERN LIGHTS ENGLISH

NITECH SILVERTONE REBEL YELL (never forgotten 1/3/10)
NORTHERN LIGHTS SHOOTER
NORTHERN LIGHTS SHIFTER
if it aint broke, fix it till it is...

Posted by jabrown on 11-30-2010 02:32 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Big Bawler
im not argueing that fact at all.im just saying how can you minus a dog when you "think" its babbling and cant prove its not running a track.

In my opinion, it comes down to a couple of things: Good judgement and backbone.

__________________
As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Joshua 24:15

Josh Brown
The Barber Shop
Cuba, MO
573-205-1391

Posted by Okie Dawg on 11-30-2010 03:16 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
There are very few things that can be proven in nite hunts. Really, almost nothing can be proven. Is it even possible to prove a treed dog has barked away from the tree? Can you prove that was your dog that struck and not mine? How do you prove it?
The words "prove it" simply do not have a place in the game of nite hunt competition.

Yep prove it is kind of like evident isn't it. If some of the judges I have been in the woods with are experts we are in a world of do do. No offence intended to any of them but if you had to be an expert to be a judge we wouldn't have many.

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