UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- Judges - Showing a Walker with a Underbite? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=389205)

Judges - Showing a Walker with a Underbite?

What are everyones takes on showing a dog with a slight underbite?


I've never had this issue. But I have a super looking male pup of my GRCH. He's now almost 5 months old and has a slight underbite (well, crooked teeth, some over some under) I don't really plan on breeding him, but he's a sharp looking dog.

As a judge myself as long as it's not so bad to effect the dogs facial apperance or eating, and it's a nice dog elsewhere, I would consider a dog with a bad bite for placement... How many judges feel that way? How many are sticklers?

The way I see it I'd rather give it to a nice dog with a bad bite, than a flat footed no angulation dog with a good bite.

__________________
Cassandra Davis
UKC Bench Show Judge & Master of Hounds

REDWOOD'S TREEING WALKER COONHOUNDS
& LOUISIANA CATAHOULA LEOPARD DOGS
http://www.RedwoodCoonhounds.net/

NITECH CGRCH FCH GRCH 'PR' Redwood's All Night Aspen
(2014 #1 UKC Top Ten All-Breed Conformation Treeing Walker)
NITECH CCH GRFCH GRWCH GRCH 'PR' Redwood's Wild Gamble

i am new to this sport, but am not new to showing dogs. a bad bite is a bad bite.
i have a very nice looking shepherd with papers with a underbite, or over, depends on how you look. she has a heck of a time eating off a flat surface sometimes.
bad bites are really no good, neither is all the problems you listed.
kelley

long as it meets.i had a dog in 90 when the rule came
out that meet to under.he could run a deer with the best
of them no breathing problems and could kill a coon with
the best of them.

I've never had this issue. But I have a super looking male pup of my GRCH. He's now almost 5 months old and has a slight underbite (well, crooked teeth, some over some under) I don't really plan on breeding him, but he's a sharp looking dog.

By the rule book there must be a visible gap, meaning they do not touch at some point. This is before they would be totally disqualified . Sounds like the pups bite is not perfect but that's why the wording was put in so it didn't disqualify a dog that was a little crooked etc. with out a real problem versus one that juts out like a suit case handle. It was an attempt to get some kind of uniformity in judges decisions.
When judging you're usually looking for something that tells you one dog is better than another so if all else is equal the crooked teeth may be the deciding factor. Some may think it's a big deal and others not so much as long as it doesn't fall into the disqualification range.

Cassandra

I know a few people that had dogs that were DQ with dogs who have a underbite or crossbite but no visable gaps, by the rules they shouldn't have been DQ from what I read of the rule and was informed of by UKC but they were.

__________________
Autumn Clements

'PR'LEAD'S MIDNITE SASSY
CFC CH Canadian GCH Multi Group Placing MBPIG BBPIG LEGACYK STANNYFIELD PRIME TIME (AKC & UKC Pointed)
BPIG MBBPIG WINDAMIRS RED LIGHT DISTRICT V AMBERLANE
LEGACYK DARE TO DREAM V CBLUES
LEGACYK WHITE AS A GHOST V CBLUES

Gone but not forgotten
GRNITECH GRCH PKC CH'PR'CLEMENTS' BLUE PRANCER
GRNITECH GRCH'PR'SPIKE'S TWILITE HOOKER
'PR'PRANCER'S GETTIN DOWN N DIRTY (PrancerxHooker)
NITECH CH’PR’BUELL’S BLUE ROCKY(Whitey x Spice)
CKC BBPIG MARIES BABY BREEZE

my dog has an overbite (as so do I lol) and i made her GRCH, it took 8 years (cuz of her weight issue not cuz of her teeth) so go for it! it might come down to that in a show and you might lose because of it, but that's doubtful

__________________
Jealousy is the most honest compliment anyone can receive ~ L. Key
He who stirs the pot, deserves to lick the spoon.

I am a UKC Bench Show Judge. As long as a dog does not have a visible gap it will not be DQ in my shows. Why these judges DQ a dog with no visible gap is beyond me.

There are many dentition problems that exist in canines other than overshot and undershot. Half over and half under makes me wonder if some other problem exists. Dentition is important. First and foremost a dog needs to be able to eat. Most dentition problems are genetic but some are due to injury. First identify the exact problem then decide if you want to put the effort into training showing and breeding the animal. Any vet with a basic knowledge of canine dental anomollies should be able to help you with this.

what happened to showing within the breed standards?????? in any kc, their should be no acceptance. especially in bites. what next???????

Re: as of jan 2011....

quote:

---

Originally posted by lauraroeder
the bluetick standard doesn't mention one word about visible gap on bite?! so with that being said...i get the idea...if you HAVE an overbite or underbite or wry bite (twisted)...you are OUT! plain and simple....some years back i didn't pick a hound with a wry bite.....though it had won quite a bit. as breeders...you should also check the bite on any hound you are going to breed, even if it is for hunting only. females with a bad bite can injure, kill puppies, when severing the umbilical core. i personally, won't breed or own any line that i know has a bad bite as it is unfair to another person who may purchase a puppy, and then unknowingly breed the puppy, and get disqualifying bite (bites). they should be culled! but that's me and my ideal of breeding to a standard.

speaking of the standard. all faults should be considered and not passed off to potential buyers. breed forward and not backwards...

---

Cassandra, I have seen many pups that were under a year old with slight to bad bites that grew out of it. When they were fully matured they had good quality bites. So don't fret yourself over it too much.

A lot of people also don't really realize at the local level that sometimes its slim pickin's in the bench shows. Sometimes full classes of dogs (or at least a lot that I have seen over the years) are not perfect examples of their breed and the judge has to do his or her best in finding the best dog that fits its standard even though each dog dosn't really measure up.

I think Dale really gave a good description of how to handle the situation.

__________________
Danielle Haney
UKC Licensed Bench Show Judge

Home of:
CH Crystal Springs Dear Darla
Crystal Creeks Dizzy Spell

Proud Handler of:
GRNITECH CH PR Jamie's Trashy Big John
NITECH PR Lifeways Fire Cracker

In Fond Memory of:
NITECH CH PR Jamie's Trashy Hightech Redneck
GRNITECH GRCH PR Morgan's Losses Hills Dawn
GRCH PR Wilkinson's Jebb
NITECH CH PR Gimme Three Steps Mister

geminite,
i dont mean you any offense, but if slim pickins on the bench at a local level means puttin up dogs that later on will stud out at an huge fee, or breed to a bitch because they think it is correct with a gr ch, then maybe that is why we see so many hounds with so many problems being bred.
time to start putting up the breed standard. period.
i have seen a good many breed being ruined by letting things slide by.
if we want good hounds, and if people are willing to buy, i dont want one with a bad bite or some kind of huge fault backing it.
kelley

Kelley, most of those local winners are not gonna go on to be big studs with huge fees. Maybe some, but not a lot. That's just how I see it. It's MY job if I'm gonna breed to a dog to make sure it has the ability and correct conformation. So not all the blame should fall on the judges.

__________________
Danielle Haney
UKC Licensed Bench Show Judge

Home of:
CH Crystal Springs Dear Darla
Crystal Creeks Dizzy Spell

Proud Handler of:
GRNITECH CH PR Jamie's Trashy Big John
NITECH PR Lifeways Fire Cracker

In Fond Memory of:
NITECH CH PR Jamie's Trashy Hightech Redneck
GRNITECH GRCH PR Morgan's Losses Hills Dawn
GRCH PR Wilkinson's Jebb
NITECH CH PR Gimme Three Steps Mister

i wasnt saying that, i was saying it lays on the breeder presenting their dogs in front of the judges. if they have worse and worst to pick from, obviously, that is going to be what??? falling on the breeder.
kelley

Re: Judges - Showing a Walker with a Underbite?

I see your point, but back to the original post.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Redwood Hounds
I've never had this issue. But I have a super looking male pup of my GRCH. He's now almost 5 months old and has a slight underbite (well, crooked teeth, some over some under) I don't really plan on breeding him, but he's a sharp looking dog.

---

__________________
Danielle Haney
UKC Licensed Bench Show Judge

Home of:
CH Crystal Springs Dear Darla
Crystal Creeks Dizzy Spell

Proud Handler of:
GRNITECH CH PR Jamie's Trashy Big John
NITECH PR Lifeways Fire Cracker

In Fond Memory of:
NITECH CH PR Jamie's Trashy Hightech Redneck
GRNITECH GRCH PR Morgan's Losses Hills Dawn
GRCH PR Wilkinson's Jebb
NITECH CH PR Gimme Three Steps Mister

AND I AM NOT SAYING THAT, all i am saying it is up to us, as owners AND BREEDERS of hounds to make sure that our specific breed meets breed standards. what is the issue with that?? i have a high dollar dog with an overbite, aint worth a sh&*. cant even eat off a plate> give me a break. it is up to anyone that loves their hounds to not even bother showing and want to if they have a bad bite. some might grow out of it, some might not. we have to further the breed standards, not ours.
kelley

Well I'm no professional so I guess I'll just keep my comments to myself.

__________________
Danielle Haney
UKC Licensed Bench Show Judge

Home of:
CH Crystal Springs Dear Darla
Crystal Creeks Dizzy Spell

Proud Handler of:
GRNITECH CH PR Jamie's Trashy Big John
NITECH PR Lifeways Fire Cracker

In Fond Memory of:
NITECH CH PR Jamie's Trashy Hightech Redneck
GRNITECH GRCH PR Morgan's Losses Hills Dawn
GRCH PR Wilkinson's Jebb
NITECH CH PR Gimme Three Steps Mister

A pup's bite can change

If a pup less than a year old has a SLIGHT underbite - no gap, then I'd be inclined to wait until it's at least a year old to see if it becomes correct.
As to judging by the BREED STANDARD - there are ALSO additional guidelines set out by UKC that fill in the gaps of the individual breed standards.
ON THE SUBJECT OF JUDGING BY BREED STANDARDS - I'VE THESE QUESTIONS":

Where does a breed standard say to judge the dogs by how well the handler "Poses" the dog on the bench?

Where are the judges who can actually recognize correct 90 degree shoulder angulation? Judges should know scapula/humerus ratio in addition to recognizing correct angulation. Too many dogs with straight shoulders and stifles and short humerous in ratio to scapula are winning.

Where are the judges with the GUTS to BYPASS the presently too frequently presented dogs (that win) with 170 degree shoulder angulation and equally less than desirable bend of stifle, skillfully handled dogs?

Where are the judges who will take a good look at a dog with correct angulation, good feet, good overall balance, correct bite, nice color that is being handled with less expertise by someone they don't recognize?

How many judges actually can recognize or CARE about correct movement while the dog is gaited?

I'm a handler AND a BSJ as well as a UKC multibreed judge and I'm mentioning this because show dogs and hunting dogs should not be different in appearance - judge dogs by the breed standards, not by how well a handler creates a statue.

__________________
SKY
___________________
Author of the novel "Follow Jennifer"

The pup is young and there is a chance that it could scissor. I my self would never show a dog with a bad bite. I agree with Kelley that we really need to present and breed only the best. If this pup is out of lines that throw bad bites I wouldn't bother.

Riverview2

IMO a bad bite, no matter how slight is a fault and as a BSJ I would DQ a dog with a "gap" in the bite and weigh the less than correct bite against all of the other considerations of overall balance, feet, angulation, color, movement, etc. Each dog should be judged as to how well it represents the breed according to the Breed Standard.
As a breeder, I would not put a less than desirable bite into the gene pool.

__________________
SKY
___________________
Author of the novel "Follow Jennifer"

skyblu


Now don't hold your tongue !!! Lol

Good Post !!!!!

__________________
Steve Morrow "Saltlick Majestic's"
"Never Have Hounds Or Kids And You Won't Get Your Heart Broke"!!

540-421-2875

PR, Saltlick's Blue Misty Linga "Bluetick Coonhound"

French X American Hounds

Re: Riverview2

quote:

---

Originally posted by skyblu
IMO a bad bite, no matter how slight is a fault and as a BSJ I would DQ a dog with a "gap" in the bite and weigh the less than correct bite against all of the other considerations of overall balance, feet, angulation, color, movement, etc. Each dog should be judged as to how well it represents the breed according to the Breed Standard.
As a breeder, I would not put a less than desirable bite into the gene pool.

---