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scoring question

dogs declared tree, order doesnt matter. when you get to the dogs you find them treed on a tree at the base of a cliff. tree is obviously empty but the branches/limbs deffinatly touch the ground at the top of the cliff.

how do you score this tree?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Josh Flatten

OOOOOOOOYYEEEEEAAAA, Macho Man Randy Savage. I think of that dude every time I see a post from Jim Hill.

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Nice move on the part of Big Ricky?

indeed it is, allen

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quote:

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Originally posted by Josh Flatten

OOOOOOOOYYEEEEEAAAA, Macho Man Randy Savage. I think of that dude every time I see a post from Jim Hill.

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PS : That's a MINUS.

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Dennis Robinson
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Ok, so i dont necisarily(?) disagree with you hobo, but if you are going to minus them how would you correct them from doing this again?
Because the reality of it is; this is by deffintion a circle tree, there are all kinds of places to hide or room to run on the top of that cliff. the dogs did nothing wrong, the track ended at a tree and they stayed there.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Josh Flatten

OOOOOOOOYYEEEEEAAAA, Macho Man Randy Savage. I think of that dude every time I see a post from Jim Hill.

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you cant fix the dog when he did it right . the coon was smarter . the coon knows the area and picked the rght tree just like when they pick den trees

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I would say that if the limbs touch the cliff and there are places to hide in the cliff then it would be a circle (the tree and cliff are considered one "tree" so to speak.)

If the limbs just touch the top of the cliff and you can clearly see there is no place to hide on the cliff for a coon (in other words you can clearly see no coon is in the tree or on the cliff and there is no place that could reasonably hide a coon in either) then it would be a bad break and minus on tree. So if it just used the tree to get to the top of the cliff and keep on runnin then minus. No different than a coon that uses a blowdown to cross a gully and keep on runnin and the dogs tree on the blowdown. It's slick, minus.

That's how I would score it.

You would have to be there to make a judgement IMO.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dkrause
Ok, so i dont necisarily(?) disagree with you hobo, but if you are going to minus them how would you correct them from doing this again?
Because the reality of it is; this is by deffintion a circle tree, there are all kinds of places to hide or room to run on the top of that cliff. the dogs did nothing wrong, the track ended at a tree and they stayed there.

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BackWoods River Walkers/Beagles
Just all 'round , meat gettin' hounds.

NO DIFFERANCE THAN TREEING ON A FENCE THEY CAN'T GET THROUGH . MINUS...........

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JAY BRADEMEYER 701 308 0490
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"Building on a solid foundation starts on the bottom side"

Seems to me that every one of these situations would be different and that there is no ONE CORRECT ANSWER. If the tree goes to a crevasse where a raccoon could get deep into the cliff it seems that you would have to circle it. If the tree goes to a perfectly flat sheer wall with no hiding places it would seem like a minus. If that same tree went to a little ledge with a coon perched on it you would have to plus it.

I think the only correct answer is to ask the cast to vote and score accordingly.

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Bad Break

But the only thing to do would be to minus it. Take care, Ron.

This whole line of thinking is why these hunts are where they are today. Just take your minus and move on. Instead, every slick tree becomes an episode of "how do we weasle out of this one".

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UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
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ya jim but dieter is kindof stupid so ,oh deiter what hunt you going to next???

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Jim Hill 651-775-1783

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Use SunSpot Lights, so bright its like the sun came out at night !!!

Seems to me a couple of people on here were just trying to score it accurately by the rules.

You have to be there.

To make a blanket statement and claim it's minus or circle would be wrong because there are way too many if's in this situation.

If you are telling me that the limbs touched a sheer cliff face with no hiding place for the coon and no coon in the tree with no place to legitimately hide then yes that would be minus.

You have to be there to judge the situation. If the coon is there in the tree or on a ledge of the cliff that would be plus provided the coon could get on the ledge.

If it was a legitimate den tree or a legitimate place for the coon to hide on the cliff then it would be circle.

If there is no hiding place in the tree or cliff (remember you would be deciding to score them as one or not, and if enough limbs were touching common sense would be to score it as one) then it's minus no matter if you think the coon went on from the top of the cliff or not. The coon won that round if that's what happened.

Like I said before it would be no different than a coon crossing a gully on a blow down and continuing on. If there isn't a coon in that blowdown it's minus. I had some boys that were regulars in the other KC that wanted to claim that situation was circle cause the coon could escape and it was 30 feet across a gully the dogs couldn't cross. WRONG. Circle is not if a coon could escape, circle is if there COULD be a coon right there in what they are treed on that you are unable to find, not if it was smart enough to evade the dogs.

Problem is many people think that there are only two ways to score a tree, plus or circle. Just go by the rules and score the trees honestly and there shouldn't be a problem.

Is there a coon there? Plus.

Is the tree slick with no legitimate place for a coon to hide from the light? Minus.

Is the tree too thick to shine adequately or is there a legitimate place that a coon could be and you not be able to see it? Circle (this is regardless if you THINK they are slick or not, you don't score a tree by what you think. You score it by what you see.)

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Let's go huntin

Around here, when a coon gets out by going out a limb and jumping off on the other side of the river or goes up and back down on a broke off limb that runs to the ground or anything that leaves the dog with an empty tree, we don't correct the dog but we do minus the tree. Mr Krause said the tree was obviously empty. End of story. We minus empty trees.

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AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
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quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
This whole line of thinking is why these hunts are where they are today. Just take your minus and move on. Instead, every slick tree becomes an episode of "how do we weasle out of this one".

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I guess what bothers me is that when left with an empty tree, the standard protocol has become to then begin a search for a way, any way, to explain why we should still circle this tree instead of minusing it for what it is. It is not uncommon today to see handlers put more effort into finding an out than they put into finding a coon. I understand that part of playing the game is figureing out how to get trees circled but that doesn't mean I have to play along. I'm one vote. In Mr. Krauses situation described, my vote would be minus.

__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
I guess what bothers me is that when left with an empty tree, the standard protocol has become to then begin a search for a way, any way, to explain why we should still circle this tree instead of minusing it for what it is. It is not uncommon today to see handlers put more effort into finding an out than they put into finding a coon. I understand that part of playing the game is figureing out how to get trees circled but that doesn't mean I have to play along. I'm one vote. In Mr. Krauses situation described, my vote would be minus.

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Golden Woods Bo
Golden Woods Fancy B

one i like the best is well you know the coon did this and did this,yes i can see what the coon did but the fact is he isnt up there he got away, MINUS!!!!! people need to stop bending the rules, still cant fig out why anyone would want a dog in there yard with a title on it that it did deserve!!

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If You Cant Stand Behide Our Troops ,Then Try Standing In Front Of Them
Jim Hill 651-775-1783

Been following these walker dogs since 1983,and love every min of it !!!!





http://minnesotastatecoonhunters.webs.com/

Use SunSpot Lights, so bright its like the sun came out at night !!!

had one Saturday nite try to circle a stump 4 ft high with no holes needless to say we all took some dashes

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jim Hill
ya jim but dieter is kindof stupid so ,oh deiter what hunt you going to next???

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quote:

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Originally posted by Josh Flatten

OOOOOOOOYYEEEEEAAAA, Macho Man Randy Savage. I think of that dude every time I see a post from Jim Hill.

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This was just a hypothetical situation. I've not ever had this happen in a hunt, though I have had simular things happen. Also, I too agree that in the situation I described, by the rules it needs to be minused.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Josh Flatten

OOOOOOOOYYEEEEEAAAA, Macho Man Randy Savage. I think of that dude every time I see a post from Jim Hill.

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