UKC Forums - Stud Dogs age

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Posted by JDS on 10-01-2010 06:35 PM:

Stud Dogs age

Does the age of a stud dog effect the genetics or traits he passes to his pups? Does he throw better pups at 3yo vs 11yo?
I know sperm count will most likely be lower, the traits and genetics should be the same, right?

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Posted by Christy on 10-01-2010 07:03 PM:

DNA IS DNA. IT DOESNT CHANGE WITH AGE.

WE HAD GRNTCH STAMEY'S CAROLINA SACKETT AND AT 11 YEARS OLD HE WAS JUST AS FERTILE AS SID WAS AT 5.

ALOT OF IT HAS TO DO WITH HOW WELL TAKEN CARE OF THE STUD IS, AND JUST PURE LUCK AS WELL.

WE HAVE BEEN BREEDING SID SINCE 2005. WE SEE THE SAME TRAITS IN HIS PUPS NOW THAT WE DID THEN.

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Posted by Hopkins/Lipper on 10-01-2010 07:26 PM:

DNA IS DNA BUT.....................

I agree that DNA is DNA...But... As I and many other breeders of animals including coondogs have learned . Desirable traits and characteristics that they possess and their ability to pass those traits is superior at a young verile age to that of the same animal at an older age. Just my opinion but one that I stand firmly by. Your Daddy is your Daddy, but you will be more like him and live a healthier life if you were born when he was 21 years old as oppossed to his being 60 or 70 years old. Common sense!!!!!!!!
Which would you rather have ?

Tom Hopkins
Hopkins/Lipper

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Posted by MRC on 10-01-2010 08:59 PM:

I totally disagree that younger dogs have better genes. IF that was the case, then the oldest child in your family would be the smartest, most athletic, etc. and you would be able to see the progression from the first born to baby of the family...

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Posted by Hopkins/Lipper on 10-01-2010 10:23 PM:

Not On The Same Page..

quote:
Originally posted by MRC
I totally disagree that younger dogs have better genes. IF that was the case, then the oldest child in your family would be the smartest, most athletic, etc. and you would be able to see the progression from the first born to baby of the family...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not saying that under normal child bearing or offspring age that characteristics with each breeding decreases. Genes are not better, however, with the difference of many years as I stated earlier like 9 or 10 dog years or 50 human years that the ability to pass strong genetic characteristic traits does deminish. A few years no, but many years yes. Here again, this is only my opinion .

Tom Hopkins
Hopkins/Lipper

Posted by Fireman Sam on 10-01-2010 10:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Christy
DNA IS DNA. IT DOESNT CHANGE WITH AGE.

WE HAD GRNTCH STAMEY'S CAROLINA SACKETT AND AT 11 YEARS OLD HE WAS JUST AS FERTILE AS SID WAS AT 5.

ALOT OF IT HAS TO DO WITH HOW WELL TAKEN CARE OF THE STUD IS, AND JUST PURE LUCK AS WELL.

WE HAVE BEEN BREEDING SID SINCE 2005. WE SEE THE SAME TRAITS IN HIS PUPS NOW THAT WE DID THEN.

Thats because that is a fact.
DNA CANNOT CHANGE.

This seems to be a common question on this board lately.
Your offsprings traits of you diminish the older you get?
That is absurd. dog or humans. I heard this board was a bunch of backyard breeders and did not understand that.

but as time goes on.........it becomes clearer. people are crazy.

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Posted by Fireman Sam on 10-01-2010 10:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Christy
DNA IS DNA. IT DOESNT CHANGE WITH AGE.

WE HAD GRNTCH STAMEY'S CAROLINA SACKETT AND AT 11 YEARS OLD HE WAS JUST AS FERTILE AS SID WAS AT 5.

ALOT OF IT HAS TO DO WITH HOW WELL TAKEN CARE OF THE STUD IS, AND JUST PURE LUCK AS WELL.

WE HAVE BEEN BREEDING SID SINCE 2005. WE SEE THE SAME TRAITS IN HIS PUPS NOW THAT WE DID THEN.

The part about taking care of the dogs and luck would have to do with breeding successes....right.

Good Job with Sid. We saw you had a pup out of him go to the World Hunt this year.

Sam

__________________
The only Peaceful thing left is a bawl mouth track dog.

Posted by Ameren on 10-01-2010 11:32 PM:

It makes no difference as to the age, other than sperm count like you said. Just look at the rat bred dogs,he threw the same till he died. Some will say different so they can convince people there older frozen semen is gonna throw better stuff than the frozen other people have.

Posted by rance56 on 10-02-2010 12:24 AM:

atleast some folks are wise enough to state their beliefs on something that is not clea cut as an opinion. and ill leave yall with this quote.

Bertrand Russell - “The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.”

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Posted by DJWALKER on 10-02-2010 01:12 PM:

For the most part, a dogs BUILDING BLOCK DNA does not undergo change.
Some DNA can change. (mutation)

The DNA used for I.D. is taken from the white blood cells.
Epigenetics, is a feild which evaluates how environmental influence may affect DNA of offspring.
Shock them now, they will be born broke in a few generations. lol

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Dan Johnson

Posted by Majestic Tree H on 10-02-2010 02:11 PM:

Just look at it this way .. Why do they use Rats in most Lab Studies ????

A Rats Metabolic/Life Rate is 26 to 30 Times Higher than a Human ..

Thus Cancer/Turmor Testing is accelerated at a Rate of avj. 28% faster when using Rats..

They can also Mutate Genetics at the same rate ..

Dogs on the other hand 10 to 13 Times the Rate of a Human.

A dog can Develop Cancer/Tumors and Die in 8-12 years of age and Dogs Die of Cancer at a rate of 12,000 times of what Humans at Young Age die of Cancer ..

You Just Don't know What your Feeding your Dogs !!! What type and Quality of Beef, Chicken, Grains, Glutens, Binders ect.

The Amount of Antibiotics and Steroids that Remains in the Beef and Poultry ???

I live in the Poultry Capital of the World .. Rockingham Co. Virginia

And I have seen what goes in to Chickens and I see everyday what goes to the Rendering Plants as By Product Animal Feeds and Proteins ..

I have seen a Entire House of 340,000 Chickens that were too High in Antibiotics for Human consumption head straight to the Rendering Plant for Animal Feeds .. Theirs a 7-14 (Depending on the Type of Med.s the Flock is on but the Min. is 7 days Prior) day cut-off date Before Slaughter to be Allowed for Human Consumption so If a Flock is Still Sick and on Med.s its header to Animal Feed.

Your just Not Grasping the Huge Rate of "Change" In our Dogs..

Just Take the Precaution and Collect and Store Semen at the age of 2-1/2 years !!!! This is the Opt. Age to Collect and Store ... Any Reproduction Vet. will tell you this ..
Not Only will the Dog be producing the Highest Sperm count but also Reduces the Risk of Enviromental or Metabolic Genetic Atlerations to Effect the Quility ...

Here is a Very Simple Example Of Mutated Genetics .. Crohn's Disease ..

The #1 source for a Human to develope Crohn's is from Gluten ..

ScienceDaily (Oct. 16, 2003) — A mutation in one of the genes that might be responsible for the inflammation that characterizes Crohn's disease has been identified by researchers at Temple University's School of Medicine (TUSM).

You Can Develop Crohn's and not have a Family Value of it.
But your Genetics will be Mutated by it and Pass it Along ..

Highly Hereditary

I'm Very Leary of the Glutinates in the Dog Feeds !!!! We Import 98% from China !!! Theirs Very Little Reg.s on it when used for Animal Feed..

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Posted by zapper31 on 10-02-2010 06:05 PM:

Re: DNA IS DNA BUT.....................

quote:
Originally posted by Hopkins/Lipper
I agree that DNA is DNA...But... As I and many other breeders of animals including coondogs have learned . Desirable traits and characteristics that they possess and their ability to pass those traits is superior at a young verile age to that of the same animal at an older age. Just my opinion but one that I stand firmly by. Your Daddy is your Daddy, but you will be more like him and live a healthier life if you were born when he was 21 years old as oppossed to his being 60 or 70 years old. Common sense!!!!!!!!
Which would you rather have ?

Tom Hopkins
Hopkins/Lipper

Traits are passed on thru DNA no matter what age(proven fact not opinion)

Posted by Sheriff Andy on 10-02-2010 06:52 PM:

now an old bitch is a different story.... take my old bitch, PLEASE...LOL

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and tan.

Posted by Snuff_52 on 10-02-2010 06:54 PM:

Re: Re: DNA IS DNA BUT.....................

quote:
Originally posted by zapper31
Traits are passed on thru DNA no matter what age(proven fact not opinion)

UH OH!

ZAPPER31 VS HOPKINS/LIPPER
13 YEAR OLD SEMEN VS 2 YEAR OLD SEMEN
BATTLE TO THE DEATH!

WHOSE LITTLE SOLDIERS WILL KEEP ON MARCHING?
TUNE IN TOMORROW(UNLESS OUR UKC MODERATORS' TRIGGER FINGER GETS ITCHY & HITS THE DELETE-BUTTON...), TO SEE WHETHER LIPPER'S HIGHLY PUBLICIZED, YOUNG & ENERGETIC SPERM WILL TRIUMPH? OR WILL THE OLDER & MORE EXPERIENCED TRUMP YOUTH & ENTHUSIASM???

OR WILL UKC DELETE THIS THREAD BEFORE WE FIND OUT???

Posted by zapper31 on 10-02-2010 07:56 PM:

Re: Re: Re: DNA IS DNA BUT.....................

quote:
Originally posted by Snuff_52
UH OH!

ZAPPER31 VS HOPKINS/LIPPER
13 YEAR OLD SEMEN VS 2 YEAR OLD SEMEN
BATTLE TO THE DEATH!

WHOSE LITTLE SOLDIERS WILL KEEP ON MARCHING?
TUNE IN TOMORROW(UNLESS OUR UKC MODERATORS' TRIGGER FINGER GETS ITCHY & HITS THE DELETE-BUTTON...), TO SEE WHETHER LIPPER'S HIGHLY PUBLICIZED, YOUNG & ENERGETIC SPERM WILL TRIUMPH? OR WILL THE OLDER & MORE EXPERIENCED TRUMP YOUTH & ENTHUSIASM???

OR WILL UKC DELETE THIS THREAD BEFORE WE FIND OUT???

the 25 straws of LIPPER semen i purchased was pulled when he was 8-11 yrs old.And when it comes down to facts vs opinions there is really nothing to battle about!TJ LIPPER and LIPPERS STYLISH CADE are from this batch of semen!!

Posted by Majestic Tree H on 10-02-2010 08:46 PM:

This Is How it is changed With Age !!!!

Eggs and Sperm ..

"In the men we studied, these mutations had not been inherited, but rather collected over time in the reservoir of primitive cells that become sperm," says first author Rivka Glaser, a graduate student in human genetics at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine.

Cells that mature into eggs are essentially frozen in time from puberty until the time the egg is signaled to develop. Because of the stage at which they are "frozen," the most likely error in an egg is to have an abnormal partitioning of chromosomes, producing an egg with an extra copy or a missing copy, Glaser says. For example, in Down syndrome, an extra copy of chromosome 21 is inherited from the mother.

Sperm, on the other hand, are continually produced throughout a male's lifetime from a reservoir of primitive cells. These primitive cells, like other kinds of so-called stem cells, can either replicate themselves or take a step closer to becoming a sperm, a process called differentiation. All told, these cells divide every 21 days after puberty, and at each cell division the opportunity exists for an error in copying the DNA.

"Literally hundreds of millions of sperm are made in each batch, so in most cases there are still many normal sperm available," says Jabs, also a professor of pediatrics. Their study showed that "high levels" of mutations among men who had no children with Apert syndrome amounted to roughly 3 sperm with the mutation among 100,000 sperm.

If an error is made in any of the steps toward becoming a sperm, the only cells affected are the resulting sperm for that batch. However, if an error appears in a primitive cell as it replicates itself and the mistake isn't fixed, the mutation will continue to be passed on to all of its progeny, including subsequent primitive cells and other batches of semen.

As men age, more of these primitive cells have collected mutations that cause Apert syndrome, leading to more sperm with the mutations in each batch of semen, the scientists suggest. The risk of having a child with Apert is about six times higher for a man age 52 than for someone who's 27.

Authors on the study are Glaser, Jabs, and Rebecca Schulman, of Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, and Karl Broman, of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.

A study led by scientists at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (LLNL) and the University of California, Berkeley, found a steady increase in sperm DNA fragmentation with increasing age of the study participants, along with increases in a gene mutation that causes achondroplasia, or dwarfism. The first changes were observed in men in their early reproductive years.

Earlier research by the same team indicated that male reproductive ability gradually worsens with age, as sperm counts decline and the sperm lose motility and their ability to swim in a straight line. In the current study, the researchers analyzed DNA damage, chromosomal abnormalities and gene mutations in semen samples from the same subjects -- 97 healthy, non-smoking LLNL employees and retirees between 22 and 80 years old -- and found that sperm motility showed a high correlation with DNA fragmentation, which is associated with increased risk of infertility and a reduced probability of fathering a successful pregnancy.

The study, "Advancing age has differential effects on DNA damage, chromatin integrity, gene mutations, and aneuploidies (chromosome abnormalities) in sperm," appears this week in the online edition of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

"This study shows that men who wait until they're older to have children are not only risking difficulties conceiving, they could also be increasing the risk of having children with genetic problems," said co-lead author Andrew Wyrobek of LLNL.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/release...60606091933.htm

ScienceDaily (June 6, 2006) — New research indicates that the genetic quality of sperm worsens as men get older, increasing a man's risk of being infertile, fathering unsuccessful pregnancies and passing along dwarfism and possibly other genetic diseases to his children.

Posted by zapper31 on 10-02-2010 11:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Majestic Tree H
This Is How it is changed With Age !!!!

Eggs and Sperm ..

"In the men we studied, these mutations had not been inherited, but rather collected over time in the reservoir of primitive cells that become sperm," says first author Rivka Glaser, a graduate student in human genetics at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine.

Cells that mature into eggs are essentially frozen in time from puberty until the time the egg is signaled to develop. Because of the stage at which they are "frozen," the most likely error in an egg is to have an abnormal partitioning of chromosomes, producing an egg with an extra copy or a missing copy, Glaser says. For example, in Down syndrome, an extra copy of chromosome 21 is inherited from the mother.

Sperm, on the other hand, are continually produced throughout a male's lifetime from a reservoir of primitive cells. These primitive cells, like other kinds of so-called stem cells, can either replicate themselves or take a step closer to becoming a sperm, a process called differentiation. All told, these cells divide every 21 days after puberty, and at each cell division the opportunity exists for an error in copying the DNA.

"Literally hundreds of millions of sperm are made in each batch, so in most cases there are still many normal sperm available," says Jabs, also a professor of pediatrics. Their study showed that "high levels" of mutations among men who had no children with Apert syndrome amounted to roughly 3 sperm with the mutation among 100,000 sperm.

If an error is made in any of the steps toward becoming a sperm, the only cells affected are the resulting sperm for that batch. However, if an error appears in a primitive cell as it replicates itself and the mistake isn't fixed, the mutation will continue to be passed on to all of its progeny, including subsequent primitive cells and other batches of semen.

As men age, more of these primitive cells have collected mutations that cause Apert syndrome, leading to more sperm with the mutations in each batch of semen, the scientists suggest. The risk of having a child with Apert is about six times higher for a man age 52 than for someone who's 27.

Authors on the study are Glaser, Jabs, and Rebecca Schulman, of Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, and Karl Broman, of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.

A study led by scientists at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (LLNL) and the University of California, Berkeley, found a steady increase in sperm DNA fragmentation with increasing age of the study participants, along with increases in a gene mutation that causes achondroplasia, or dwarfism. The first changes were observed in men in their early reproductive years.

Earlier research by the same team indicated that male reproductive ability gradually worsens with age, as sperm counts decline and the sperm lose motility and their ability to swim in a straight line. In the current study, the researchers analyzed DNA damage, chromosomal abnormalities and gene mutations in semen samples from the same subjects -- 97 healthy, non-smoking LLNL employees and retirees between 22 and 80 years old -- and found that sperm motility showed a high correlation with DNA fragmentation, which is associated with increased risk of infertility and a reduced probability of fathering a successful pregnancy.

The study, "Advancing age has differential effects on DNA damage, chromatin integrity, gene mutations, and aneuploidies (chromosome abnormalities) in sperm," appears this week in the online edition of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

"This study shows that men who wait until they're older to have children are not only risking difficulties conceiving, they could also be increasing the risk of having children with genetic problems," said co-lead author Andrew Wyrobek of LLNL.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/release...60606091933.htm

ScienceDaily (June 6, 2006) — New research indicates that the genetic quality of sperm worsens as men get older, increasing a man's risk of being infertile, fathering unsuccessful pregnancies and passing along dwarfism and possibly other genetic diseases to his children.

Posted by zapper31 on 10-02-2010 11:30 PM:

egg and sperm

quote:
Originally posted by zapper31

This study was on human egg and sperm and cannot be compared to canine reproduction for it is in a catagory of its own.For info on canine cloning ,invetro fertilization , AI and genetics call JIN HAN HONG at BIOSTAR in SOUTH KOREA and talk to the scientists there.240-751-2400 They are the world leaders in this field.[mailto:hongjh@rnl.co.kr]Biostar cloned a dog for a women in California and produced five identical males that were identical to her old dog that died.For $5000 they will fertilize your females eggs in a test tube and re-insert them for the gestation period.

Posted by Majestic Tree H on 10-02-2010 11:43 PM:

I know it can't be compaired to a Canine Because In Canines it happen 12 Times Faster then in Humans ..

Posted by CSnowgren on 10-02-2010 11:48 PM:

Re: Stud Dogs age

quote:
Originally posted by JDS
Does the age of a stud dog effect the genetics or traits he passes to his pups? Does he throw better pups at 3yo vs 11yo?
I know sperm count will most likely be lower, the traits and genetics should be the same, right?

Yes. Some may be damaged but they aren't viable enough to affect conception. Millions and millions of sperm will compete, the damaged ones don't make it regardless if the dog is two or twenty two. Don't believe the nonsense. Recognize between fact and peddling. Lipper was a quality stud dog and straws were stored because of it. Laugh at those that claim their straw is better than the next guy's straw and be happy you didn't pony up the $5000 for a pup when you could get your own litter for the price of a nice started dog.

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Posted by zapper31 on 10-03-2010 12:19 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Majestic Tree H
I know it can't be compaired to a Canine Because In Canines it happen 12 Times Faster then in Humans ..

wrong reason!!!!

Posted by Chiggers on 10-03-2010 12:25 AM:

Yea DNA is always the same, thats why all the dogs in a litter always turn out the same.

__________________
Perry Metcalf.. Go Big Blue !

Posted by zapper31 on 10-03-2010 12:30 AM:

Re: Not On The Same Page..

quote:
Originally posted by Hopkins/Lipper
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not saying that under normal child bearing or offspring age that characteristics with each breeding decreases. Genes are not better, however, with the difference of many years as I stated earlier like 9 or 10 dog years or 50 human years that the ability to pass strong genetic characteristic traits does deminish. A few years no, but many years yes. Here again, this is only my opinion .

Tom Hopkins
Hopkins/Lipper

So in your opinion its best to breed to a stud dog buy the time he is two?

Posted by zapper31 on 10-03-2010 04:59 PM:

The sire to the mother of Tom Hopkins litter of Lipper puppies is COWEE CREEK CLINT.He is thirteen years old and still producing winning COONDOGS!!!If Tom H still had HOPKINS CASH in his kennel im about 100% positive he would have a differrent OPINION!

Posted by Majestic Tree H on 10-04-2010 02:53 PM:

Last Time !!!!

After Intense Studying on the Subject ..

I will Explain very Simply ..

Do you know how your Data in the Hard Drive on your Computer will become Fragmented over time .. Bits and pieces and very small Fragments become "Free Floating and Scattered" over a vast area of other data .. And over time you can De- Frag your Hard drive and you Can't De-Frag Your Genetics..

The Exact same thing happens as Male Mammals Age, Bits and Pieces of Genetics become "Free Floating" and May or May not be in the correct order or even Be Copied ..
Every 21 days The Male Stem Cells Divide as Copies and some become Sperm .. At any time theses Cells/Genetics can be Altered ether by Disease / Environmental / Chemical (Flea Spray) or Age Related Fragmentation.

The Female on the Other Hand the Encase Egg is Fixed Genetically at birth but can have Chromosomal Damage with Age ..

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