UKC Forums - score this one

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-- score this one (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=370173)

Posted by william endress on 08-15-2010 04:11 PM:

score this one

4 dog cast all dogs struck in. The dogs are flying twards us waiting on the road. The coon attempts to cross in front of us but decides different. Guess he didnt like the truck high beams. All 4 dogs slam the tree. Here is the odd part. When we arrive to a 7 foot christmas tree the coon is jerked out of the tree by one of the dogs. But only 1 guy saw it. The rest of us just see a coon gettin stretched on the ground. How do you score it? We scored it as cought on the ground, because only one of us saw it in the tree before it was on the ground. Think it was the rite call? Yes i know they had him up but didnt get to see that. I guess thats the breaks.

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Posted by blueboy90 on 08-15-2010 04:13 PM:

dogs not handled

since dogs were not handled yet,its scored as coon caught on ground.just a bad break

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Posted by Bill(Chew) on 08-15-2010 04:32 PM:

Dogs tree points are deleted and the strike points are plus because the dogs reached the coon and the coon was "CAUGHT". Doesn't make any difference if the coon was seen in the tree before the dogs were handled.

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Posted by cbcoonskinner on 08-15-2010 08:40 PM:

the guy that saw the coon in the tree shouldn't of been looking at the tree unless all dogs were handled and shine time started. He could of been scratched for saying he saw the coon in the tree before dogs were handled

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Posted by Maniac on 08-15-2010 08:45 PM:

Re: dogs not handled

quote:
Originally posted by blueboy90
since dogs were not handled yet,its scored as coon caught on ground.just a bad break

correct. if judge didnt say leash your hounds. and said shine the tree then the man that shine the tree before said shine time started everyone shine then he is scratch for shineing!

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Posted by Tim MACHA on 08-15-2010 11:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by cbcoonskinner
the guy that saw the coon in the tree shouldn't of been looking at the tree unless all dogs were handled and shine time started. He could of been scratched for saying he saw the coon in the tree before dogs were handled

Everyone can jump on me again, but just suppose that guy was handling his dog when his dog grabbed the coon. He was not shining the tree, just the mouth of the dog that just happened to be grabbing a skiddish coon coming down the tree. Don't see how he could be scratched for that. JMHO

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Posted by Maniac on 08-15-2010 11:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tim MACHA
Everyone can jump on me again, but just suppose that guy was handling his dog when his dog grabbed the coon. He was not shining the tree, just the mouth of the dog that just happened to be grabbing a skiddish coon coming down the tree. Don't see how he could be scratched for that. JMHO

well in this case he wouldnt be scratch. good point

Posted by Rip on 08-15-2010 11:39 PM:

Remember too scratched for shining means just that SHINING THE TREE.

It doesn't mean accidentally seeing something in the tree or the light beam hitting the tree. It means shining the tree. Big difference.

Plenty of times you can see eyes in the tree goin in without shinin the tree.

The rule is not meant to scratch someone cause their light beam went across the tree walkin in. It is meant to scratch someone trying to get extra shine time/unfair advantage. There is a difference.

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Posted by on 08-15-2010 11:40 PM:

Can you even scratch someone for shining outside the shinetime? What rule do you use? I know you cannot score a coon outside of shinetime but where does it say you can't have a light in the tree?

Posted by Maniac on 08-15-2010 11:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Can you even scratch someone for shining outside the shinetime? What rule do you use? I know you cannot score a coon outside of shinetime but where does it say you can't have a light in the tree?

when u get to the tree the judge is suppose tell u to handle your dog. then ask the man with first tree if he wants the first 2. u cant shine the tree inless the judge tells u to. its always been this way.

Posted by on 08-15-2010 11:46 PM:

Where does it say you are scratched if your light goes up before shinetime?

Posted by Maniac on 08-15-2010 11:49 PM:

jim the rules staight u cant shine till the judge tells u

Posted by Rip on 08-15-2010 11:49 PM:

Jim, you know the implied scratch as well as anybody.

Fishin much? LOL

Ok, I'll bite. I think Todd covered this before and pretty much said what I did. You can't actively/intentionally shine the tree before shine time, that can lead to a scratch for not following rules/instructions.

BUT you can't go around scratching people cause their light hit the tree either.

It's back to that judgement call again. If you as a judge think someone was trying to get extra shine time then they are scratched, if their light innocently hit the tree then they are not.

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Posted by on 08-15-2010 11:59 PM:

I agree Rip, you can't SEARCH the tree before the judge starts the shinetime. But I dont believe UKC intends a handler to be scratched because his light hit the tree or because he saw the coon look before shinetime starts. We have all lit up a coon walking in from a distance such as across a field and such and I don't think that could ever be considered a scratch offense.
There is a difference between searching a tree and hitting it with your light. I don't think you can be scratched unless it is determined youy were actively searching the tree.

Posted by Maniac on 08-15-2010 11:59 PM:

individual holding first tree (controls) (shineing time of tree for first two minutes)

Posted by Tim MACHA on 08-16-2010 01:58 AM:

Jim

After my post, I was out mowing grass pondering the same thing. Just had to look it up when I got done. March, 2010 advisor: Implied scratch,
Climbing or killing coon
Refusing to stay with cast
Shining split tree before Judge arrives
Arriving at tree before Judge
Failing to finish scorecard in woods
Failure to leash dog at tree
Encouraging or discouraging dogs(does not mean you can't pet dog at tree)
Squalling at tree with other dogs struckon trail
Shining the tree during the first two minutes if the handler with first tree desires to shine alone
If your spectator shines tree before it is scored
Refusing to vote on a question
Threatening or intimidating others.

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Posted by Bill(Chew) on 08-16-2010 02:35 AM:

You are supposed to determine if a close split tree is to be scored as one tree or two. How do you determine without putting a light up there?

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Posted by on 08-16-2010 02:33 PM:

Shining split tree before Judge arrives

There is a difference between shing a tree and hitting it with your light. A little common sense goes a long way. There are a few that hunt UKC and consider the scratch rules as their own personel weapon that makes up for a sorry dog. A cast vote or competant MOH should be able to see the difference between shinhg the tree and anything else.

Posted by John D on 08-16-2010 03:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
I agree Rip, you can't SEARCH the tree before the judge starts the shinetime. But I dont believe UKC intends a handler to be scratched because his light hit the tree or because he saw the coon look before shinetime starts.

I agree. But if I happen to see the coon early I will just wait and be the first one to see it when shine time starts, lol.

I had a guy try to scratch me one time when I said I saw the coon on the way in to the tree and figure its just easier to avoid that argument, lol. One of the things you learn if you go to enough hunts.

quote:
Originally posted by Tim MACHA

Failure to leash dog at tree

This one surprises me. So, if you go into a tree and a dog comes in, gets up on the tree and the handler is instructed to handle him, and the dog then runs off and stays away, he's scratched?????

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Posted by Todd Miller on 08-16-2010 04:39 PM:

The leader of the cast usually comes up with these scratchable rules, outside a good judgement call.

Posted by cbcoonskinner on 08-16-2010 04:59 PM:

%To bad the guy that seen jump or get pulled out of the tree wasn't the judge then tree points would have counted!

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Posted by Rip on 08-16-2010 05:42 PM:

No the points wouldn't have counted no matter who seen the coon. You can't score a tree outside of official shine time. Doesn't matter if the whole cast seen it before or after that 10 minutes. Within shine time is the only thing that is scorable for plus tree points.

Yes John, the rule states that all dogs at tree MUST be leashed, that's why I like to get there before the five ends if I can, especially if there is any monkey business going on. They might give flack about not leashing the dogs after the 5, because it says they must be leashed. If it's before the 5 then we can see which one is causing the ruckus LOL.

I do think the Advisor clarified this and said a judge does have the right to observe the dogs and ask you to keep them unleashed for a minute, but it can be a headach that way when we can just innocently slide up close enough to throw a light that way before the 5.

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Posted by pawoodrum on 08-16-2010 05:43 PM:

high beams

Why did the cast have the truck lights on in the first place. Were they rigging the dogs if so the whole bunch should be scratched. Next point, the tree was described as a Christmas tree, unless it is like the ones in previous administrations, it probably was over six or seven feet tall, on that note, if the handlers dog was treeing like most GOOD tree dogs tree, feet on tree, head in the air not on the ground with the nose stuck to the ground, it would be very easy to see a coon without SHINING the tree.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 08-16-2010 06:39 PM:

Re: high beams

quote:
Originally posted by pawoodrum
Why did the cast have the truck lights on in the first place. Were they rigging the dogs if so the whole bunch should be scratched. Next point, the tree was described as a Christmas tree, unless it is like the ones in previous administrations, it probably was over six or seven feet tall, on that note, if the handlers dog was treeing like most GOOD tree dogs tree, feet on tree, head in the air not on the ground with the nose stuck to the ground, it would be very easy to see a coon without SHINING the tree.

Not if it is a cedar tree.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 08-16-2010 06:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by John D
I agree.

This one surprises me. So, if you go into a tree and a dog comes in, gets up on the tree and the handler is instructed to handle him, and the dog then runs off and stays away, he's scratched?????

I would say they would have to get you for dog leaveing the tree on that one. Failure to handle would have to be intentional or dog staying at tree but can't be cought. May be wrong but that is how I would handle it till some one questioned it and took it to MOH.

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