UKC Forums - The Lipper Strain

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Posted by HistoryNutt on 07-07-2010 08:25 PM:

The Lipper Strain

Is it time to start talking about a Lipper Strain?? A serious question and for good reason. I know the first impulse might be to say, what are you talking about he is House Bred.

But what is Yadkin River? What is Lone Pine? What is Clover? What is Spring Creek? What is Sailor Boy?

Well lets take Sailor Boy. The Sailor Strain is HERSHBERGER bred. But a couple of dogs with a different name came from that strain that had an impact and people started talking about the Sailor strain of hounds.

Well House's Lipper has had an impact too. Bigger then maybe most realize. Even though he does have some House Bred hounds in him, he also has a lot more of some of the other hounds that made an impact on the breed. The combination of these strains is what made Lipper. In a later post I will try to go into how much of the House Strain he has in him compared to some of the other dogs in his pedigree.

This is not an attempt to take away from the House Strain but give credit to the other strains that combined together made Lipper which is The Lipper Strain.

With the arrival in a few days of some brand new puppies out of House's Lipper maybe it is time to actually talk about the Lipper Strain and the impact it has had on the breed. Doesn't he deserve this much?

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Posted by HistoryNutt on 07-07-2010 08:30 PM:

HOUSE'S TOM TOM - THE LIPPER STRAIN

quote:
Originally posted by C.Gibson
Hey history nut.. What can you tell us about House's tom tom? Back in the day that was the blood I loved. Tom Tom, & Clint. Both led to lipper.

Okay before I start let me do a disclaimer.

"Okay your House freaks said with a smile, the information I am going to post here and in later posts is in NO WAY meant to take anything away from Joe House and the important part he had on the breed. It is not meant to diminish his importance or to bash him in anyway. It is also not meant to give more credit then what is due.

To talk about a strain we will need a fountain head for that strain. I would think that HOUSE'S QUEEN would be considered the Fountain Head of the House's Strain.

Let's start with HOUSE'S TOM TOM. Would most consider him a House Bred Hound? Tom Tom was out of Kaw River Chief and Tinsley's Kansas Tess.

Kaw River Chief was out of House's Chief and Johnson's Kansas Rose.

House's Chief was out of Johnson's Banjo and House's Queen.

Kansas Rose was out of Staley's Paducah Chief and Hershberger's Kansas Sally.

Tom Tom's mother Tinsley's Kansas Tess was out of Bun's Jack and Tinsley's Kansas Jane. What many may not realize is that there was another Tinsley's Kansas Tess that had as much if not more impact then Tom Tom's mother Tess. The original Tinsley's Kansas Tess is in Tom's mother background numerous times. She was out of Mack Twain and a female out of Indiana Boone Boy and Forrester's Sue. Her mother was a litter mate to Forrester's Bell, Motley's Mo. Major's mother.

So House's Tom Tom's mother goes back to Mack Twain at least 3 times, Indiana Boone Boy at least 4 times, Forrester's Sue at least 4 time, Motley's Mo. Major, Merchant's Bawlie, Hershberger's Little Butch.

Tom Tom's Daddy Kaw River Chief as stated goes back to Johnson's Banjo and House's Queen. But in all fairness if you was going to call Tom Tom as House Bred because of his Grandfather's mother, couldn't you also make the argument he is Banjo bred?

Tom Tom's grand pa is House's Chief. That is the only place you get House and since Chief was out of Banjo why not Banjo bred?

Kaw River Chief's mother Kansas Rose goes back to Nance's Joe Williams, Mack Twain, Hershberger's Okla. Spot, Hershberger's Texas Babe, Indians Boone Boy, Forrester's Sue, White River Boone at least 2 times, and Hershberger's Spot Jr.

So there you have it for the most part. What strain is Tom Tom?

Posted by HOBO on 07-07-2010 08:30 PM:

Why now? This isn't the first litter of pups off of Lipper since he's been dead. Why is there so much hype with this litter over the others?

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Posted by DANNY RAMEY on 07-07-2010 08:31 PM:

HISTORY NUT YOUR AWESOME I'VE LEARNED ALOT ABOUT WALKER HISTORY THAT I COULDN'T HAVE LEARNED ANY WHERE ELSE. JUST WANTED TO THANK YOU.

Posted by DANNY RAMEY on 07-07-2010 08:46 PM:

SO WHAT WAS HOUSE'S QUEEN OUT OF ?I KNOW MR. HOPKINS SAID HE DIDN'T HUNT FEMALES SO I'M GUESSING SOMEONE ELSE DID BREEDING FOR THEM? I'M MEAN OTHER THAN THAT YOU MAINLY ONLY HEAR OF A HOUSE'S MALE DOGS WHAT WAS SOME MORE FEMALES THAT WE'RE OWNED BY HOUSE AND MR. HOPKINS.

Posted by Knox on 07-07-2010 11:17 PM:

Why...?.........Maybe-------

quote:
Originally posted by HOBO
Why now? This isn't the first litter of pups off of Lipper since he's been dead. Why is there so much hype with this litter over the others?

Its because of WHO is pushing this litter...= Mr. Hopkins

He has been away from it so long and being the former owner of the GREAT Lipper has some (including me ) fired up...........I am looking forward to see what this litter does....................Tim

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Posted by HistoryNutt on 07-08-2010 12:10 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by DANNY RAMEY
HISTORY NUT YOUR AWESOME I'VE LEARNED ALOT ABOUT WALKER HISTORY THAT I COULDN'T HAVE LEARNED ANY WHERE ELSE. JUST WANTED TO THANK YOU.

Thanks for the kind words Danny.

Posted by HistoryNutt on 07-08-2010 12:15 AM:

Re: Why...?.........Maybe-------

quote:
Originally posted by Knox
Its because of WHO is pushing this litter...= Mr. Hopkins

He has been away from it so long and being the former owner of the GREAT Lipper has some (including me ) fired up...........I am looking forward to see what this litter does....................Tim

I agree Tim. It is exciting to see someone get back into something they loved. Also this semen is 26 years old taken when Lipper was only two. That is exciting as to what science can help us accomplish.

Lipper had a big Impact on the breed and these little Lippers could have the next big impact. It will be exciting to watch.

Posted by HistoryNutt on 07-08-2010 12:22 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by DANNY RAMEY
SO WHAT WAS HOUSE'S QUEEN OUT OF ?I KNOW MR. HOPKINS SAID HE DIDN'T HUNT FEMALES SO I'M GUESSING SOMEONE ELSE DID BREEDING FOR THEM? I'M MEAN OTHER THAN THAT YOU MAINLY ONLY HEAR OF A HOUSE'S MALE DOGS WHAT WAS SOME MORE FEMALES THAT WE'RE OWNED BY HOUSE AND MR. HOPKINS.

House's Queen was a single registered hound. I think Mr. Hopkins and Mr. House mainly only promoted male dogs in the hunts. Queen would have been the Fountain Head of the House Strain. She produced House's Bawlie, House's Chief, Cole's Cache River Rebel and many many more that were either Nite Ch. or Grand Nt. Ch. This also included many females that were titled.

But with a stud dog an ad may be run every few months. With a female maybe once a year if you have pups for sale out of them.

Just because they didn't promote females in the hunts didn't mean they didn't have females they hunted for pleasure and to raise pups from.

Posted by HOBO on 07-08-2010 02:43 AM:

So instead of Lipper Strain why not call them Hopkins bred?

I don't want to be taken as someone being negative I'm just asking questions.

Posted by l.lyle on 07-08-2010 02:51 AM:

This is more of a question than a statement. My first was a grandpup off Houses Bawlie. That was a long time before tracking systems became common. Go Yonder, staight liners wouldn't have lasted long and wouldn't have been wanted. But I understand that Lipper was an Independant dog in a different way. The "complaint" if you will, from people that hunted against Lipper and his first generation offspring was that other dogs would be working a good ways off and Lipper would fall treed 50 to 100 yards away from the cast people and have a coon. Evidently he was independent as far as other dogs and a lay up artist. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Nothing wrong with an independant dog that can tree one at your feet but there is plenty wrong with an independent dog that thinks he has to get out of hearing to start hunting. So how is the dam of this litter geared up to hunt? Just the semen can't fix all the problems in the Walkers. It sure would be nice to have some old frozen eggs as well.

I hope this turns out to be a great litter!

Posted by on 07-08-2010 02:56 AM:

Don,
Keep it going. Finally something somewhat interesting to read on here. I'm not a "Lipper" man, but you almost can't get away from it. Lipper shows up in several of today's Walker hounds. I've never sought out to get any Lipper blood, but his blood is in every hound we got in the kennel.

Hobo,
Now I was just a kid in Lipper's hey day but from my perspective, there are several folks that love House blood but don't or didn't seek out to stack up Lipper. I know Tom Hopkin's owned Lipper at a time, but I believe a few other guys owned and promoted Lipper for a time too. I don't think anyone was after "Hopkin's" blood dogs, as they were simply after Lipper. Joe House on the other hand promoted a line or family of dogs for years. There are several that did seek out to get dogs from him, Lipper bred or not. No offense to any of the above mentioned, just kind of how I see it. What do I know, I wasn't even shaving yet when Lipper was in his prime.

Posted by Larry Hall on 07-08-2010 02:59 AM:

I wish them luck!

you get a Lipper dog that will tree and you'll have a good one

Hope they used that semen on a Sackett Jr bred bitch.. Odds will go way up..

Posted by josh on 07-08-2010 03:31 AM:

Has any one dog put more pups on the ground than Lipper?

Im not sure, but the number 7,000 sticks in my mind.

I would think with that kind of sampling, he has done evrything he is gonna do.

Posted by honalieh on 07-08-2010 03:34 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Hall
I wish them luck!

you get a Lipper dog that will tree and you'll have a good one

Hope they used that semen on a Sackett Jr bred bitch.. Odds will go way up..

Sounds like you've hunted with pups off old Lipper. You apparently saw the same things I saw in Lipper pups.

Posted by DANNY RAMEY on 07-08-2010 03:35 AM:

TO BAD THEY DON'T HAVE QUEENS EGGS FROZEN THAT WOULD REALLY BE AWESOME TO REPRODUCE THE SAME EXACT LITTER 26 YEARS LATER AND TO THINK OTHER BREEDS BREEDERS HAVE A PROBLEM WITH A SINGLE REGISTERED HOUND. I THINK THIS WILL BE INTERESTING IN ANYWAY THEY'LL BE TWO SIDES ONES THAT WANT ONE AND ONES THAT ARE JEALOUS BECAUSE THEIR NOT A PART OF IT. PERSONALLY I DON'T SEE GIVING THAT KIND OF MONEY FOR A PUP.

Posted by pigsit on 07-08-2010 04:38 AM:

Re: HOUSE'S TOM TOM - THE LIPPER STRAIN

quote:
Originally posted by HistoryNutt
Okay before I start let me do a disclaimer.

"Okay your House freaks said with a smile, the information I am going to post here and in later posts is in NO WAY meant to take anything away from Joe House and the important part he had on the breed. It is not meant to diminish his importance or to bash him in anyway. It is also not meant to give more credit then what is due.

To talk about a strain we will need a fountain head for that strain. I would think that HOUSE'S QUEEN would be considered the Fountain Head of the House's Strain.

Let's start with HOUSE'S TOM TOM. Would most consider him a House Bred Hound? Tom Tom was out of Kaw River Chief and Tinsley's Kansas Tess.

Kaw River Chief was out of House's Chief and Johnson's Kansas Rose.

House's Chief was out of Johnson's Banjo and House's Queen.

Kansas Rose was out of Staley's Paducah Chief and Hershberger's Kansas Sally.

Tom Tom's mother Tinsley's Kansas Tess was out of Bun's Jack and Tinsley's Kansas Jane. What many may not realize is that there was another Tinsley's Kansas Tess that had as much if not more impact then Tom Tom's mother Tess. The original Tinsley's Kansas Tess is in Tom's mother background numerous times. She was out of Mack Twain and a female out of Indiana Boone Boy and Forrester's Sue. Her mother was a litter mate to Forrester's Bell, Motley's Mo. Major's mother.

So House's Tom Tom's mother goes back to Mack Twain at least 3 times, Indiana Boone Boy at least 4 times, Forrester's Sue at least 4 time, Motley's Mo. Major, Merchant's Bawlie, Hershberger's Little Butch.

Tom Tom's Daddy Kaw River Chief as stated goes back to Johnson's Banjo and House's Queen. But in all fairness if you was going to call Tom Tom as House Bred because of his Grandfather's mother, couldn't you also make the argument he is Banjo bred?

Tom Tom's grand pa is House's Chief. That is the only place you get House and since Chief was out of Banjo why not Banjo bred?

Kaw River Chief's mother Kansas Rose goes back to Nance's Joe Williams, Mack Twain, Hershberger's Okla. Spot, Hershberger's Texas Babe, Indians Boone Boy, Forrester's Sue, White River Boone at least 2 times, and Hershberger's Spot Jr.

So there you have it for the most part. What strain is Tom Tom?

A friend of mine, who has passed on, Robert Austin of South Haven,KS was good friends with and hunted a lot with Dick Hershberger. There use to be a Walker Sectional in Eastern Kansas and I attended it a number of times. Robert and Dick also attended, and both dick and Robert had lots of pictures of their past hunts and old hunters and dogs they owned. I hunted with a number of Hershberger bred dogs, and never thought they got the recognition they deserved; they produced a lot of top hounds and were the foundation of lot down the road. Tom

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Posted by DANNY RAMEY on 07-08-2010 01:35 PM:

DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT BIG HUNTS LIPPER WON BACK IN THE DAY A.O,OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT?

Posted by Diggerman on 07-08-2010 02:10 PM:

LIPPER PUPS

I hope they turn out , but if they do, Wouldn't it mean that 30 years of selective breeding since has failed? If properly bred, wouldn't offspring be as good as or better than the foundation stock. Just wondering out loud.

Posted by Larry Hall on 07-08-2010 02:58 PM:

I think we are on the same page Honalieh

Lipper was a very nice hound i believe and had owners and handlers that promoted and marketed him very well..

You can't hardly find a walker dog alive today that hasn't got him somewhere in the pedigree.

I believe these folks will promote and market a new stud off the old dog and do a great job of it..

Posted by Dan McDonough on 07-08-2010 04:54 PM:

Somewhere....

Somewhere around here I have a letter givem to me by a buddy and it was writen by the guy who raised Lipper from a pup and he tells how he raised him and what kind of dog he was as a pup. It's a neat thing to have if I could just find it. I know I'm not the only person who has a copy of this. Does any one else have this letter. Maybe someone could post it for others to read.

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Posted by l.lyle on 07-08-2010 05:10 PM:

Re: LIPPER PUPS

quote:
Originally posted by Diggerman
I hope they turn out , but if they do, Wouldn't it mean that 30 years of selective breeding since has failed? If properly bred, wouldn't offspring be as good as or better than the foundation stock. Just wondering out loud.

No, it would mean selective breeding has succeeded in producing the kind of dogs it takes to win hunts. You know, by itself with lots of circles. lol

Posted by p31295 on 07-08-2010 11:32 PM:

Re: Somewhere....

quote:
Originally posted by Dan McDonough
Somewhere around here I have a letter givem to me by a buddy and it was writen by the guy who raised Lipper from a pup and he tells how he raised him and what kind of dog he was as a pup. It's a neat thing to have if I could just find it. I know I'm not the only person who has a copy of this. Does any one else have this letter. Maybe someone could post it for others to read.

Man I would like to read it too. I know he seemed like a 4 year old, when he was wearing us out around here. And he was only like a year old.

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Posted by pigsit on 07-09-2010 01:12 PM:

Re: LIPPER PUPS

quote:
Originally posted by Diggerman
I hope they turn out , but if they do, Wouldn't it mean that 30 years of selective breeding since has failed? If properly bred, wouldn't offspring be as good as or better than the foundation stock. Just wondering out loud.

I guesss that would depend on whose breeding program you were looking at. Tom

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Posted by Hopkins/Lipper on 07-09-2010 04:21 PM:

Re: Re: LIPPER PUPS

quote:
Originally posted by pigsit
I guesss that would depend on whose breeding program you were looking at. Tom

The key words in that statement are "if properly bred"
It all depends on what traits you are breeding for and some foresight in doing so.
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I'm a little fired up.
Tom Hopkins
Hopkins/Lipper

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