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Posted by georgef072007 on 05-18-2010 11:45 PM:

I have a question

Rule 4 G, states:

(g) Dogs treeing, but not declared treed, when Judge arrives, will be minused on tree points on "off" game or slick tree. Points will be determined by next available position in the case of one dog, or split available tree points in the case of two or more dogs. Dogs shut out on strike on slick tree or "off" game will receive minus tree points only.

If there is a coon in the tree and the other dogs get plussed, then what do the dogs treeing but not declared tree'd get? I know it may sound like a stupid question, but I can't find any reference to deal with that situation in the rule book. Am I overlooking it?

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Posted by HOBO on 05-19-2010 12:13 AM:

Rule 4
d) If dog declared treed, after five minutes has elapsed no additional dog can be declared treed at that particular tree but if they come in to tree will get minus on track and nothing on tree if coon is seen

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Posted by georgef072007 on 05-19-2010 02:39 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by HOBO
Rule 4
d) If dog declared treed, after five minutes has elapsed no additional dog can be declared treed at that particular tree but if they come in to tree will get minus on track and nothing on tree if coon is seen

I don't think that applies in the case of dogs treeing but not declared treed. Section d, is covering dogs coming in to a tree, not dogs that were aleready there and just not declared tree'd the way I read it.

Posted by longshot on 05-19-2010 03:18 AM:

If the handler doesn't tree his dog an the 5 expires with a coon seen , he gets minus on strike for being at a tree with coon seen and not declared treed.

If the tree is slick or off game he gets minused strike and tree , even if not declared treed ( asigned next avaliable position and minused.....The only way he is prevented from getting a minus strike on a slick is if he was shut out on strike. (another dog was declared treed before the other dog struck... He would still be asigned next available position and minus on tree... Confusing ?

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Posted by longshot on 05-19-2010 03:22 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by georgef072007
I don't think that applies in the case of dogs treeing but not declared treed. Section d, is covering dogs coming in to a tree, not dogs that were aleready there and just not declared tree'd the way I read it.

It doesn't matter when they come in , if a coon is seen , they get minus strike for being late , or not declared treed (if coon is seen)

The stationary rule doesn't aplly to them because another dog is declared treed and time is running.

A side note.... If they declare them treed AFTER the 5 expires , they MUST be on a separate tree.

The easiest way to remember how to score tree's is;

1. Coon seen-- Plus treed dogs , minus strike on others at the tree , no matter when they come into tree.

2. Slick or off game --- Minus all dogs treeing when you arrive, strike and tree even if not declared treed. ( Only exception is dogs shut out on strike = delete strike, minus tree points... If dog comes in AFTER judge arrives , he gets deleted strike.

3. Circle tree--- Circle dogs declared treed , delete strike on others at tree

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 05-19-2010 06:05 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by longshot
It doesn't matter when they come in , if a coon is seen , they get minus strike for being late , or not declared treed (if coon is seen)

The stationary rule doesn't aplly to them because another dog is declared treed and time is running.

A side note.... If they declare them treed AFTER the 5 expires , they MUST be on a separate tree.

The easiest way to remember how to score tree's is;

1. Coon seen-- Plus treed dogs , minus strike on others at the tree , no matter when they come into tree.

2. Slick or off game --- Minus all dogs treeing when you arrive, strike and tree even if not declared treed. ( Only exception is dogs shut out on strike = delete strike, minus tree points... If dog comes in AFTER judge arrives , he gets deleted strike.

3. Circle tree--- Circle dogs declared treed , delete strike on others at tree

You should wright a whole rule book and semplefly them like that. I will buy the first one.............

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Posted by Allen / UKC on 05-19-2010 01:15 PM:

Three different rules might be applicable for dogs treeing but not declared treed when the judge arrives. Those three are 4(d) 4(g) and 5(a). Before you'll know which of the three applies to that dog you'll need to score the tree first.

1) If a coon is seen. 4(d) applies
2) If it's slick or offgame. 4(g) applies
3) If it's a circle tree. 5(a) applies.

Posted by on 05-19-2010 03:51 PM:

Man, you guys make this one little mistake over and over. YOU DO NOT DELETE STRIKE POINTS in any of those intances. The strike points are minused or circled, never deleted under 4(d), 4(g) or 5(a) unless the dog was shutout.
Strike point are not deleted unless you are shut out, dog returns to a previously scored tree or timeout is called. Read rule 5-Deleted Points .

Posted by Justin Smith on 05-19-2010 04:08 PM:

You also delete strike points if they guy who finds the coon for the cast has a dog that comes in late or leaves the tree ...

Posted by longshot on 05-19-2010 08:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Man, you guys make this one little mistake over and over. YOU DO NOT DELETE STRIKE POINTS in any of those intances. The strike points are minused or circled, never deleted under 4(d), 4(g) or 5(a) unless the dog was shutout.
Strike point are not deleted unless you are shut out, dog returns to a previously scored tree or timeout is called. Read rule 5-Deleted Points .

Jim , what do you do with strike points on a dog that comes into a slick AFTER the judge arrives ? Thats what I referred to above in senario no. 2

JIM, what do you do with strike points on a dog that comes into a circle tree AFTER the judge arrives ? Doesn't 5(g) apply and it is delete? After all that dog was shut out on that tree 'per' rule 5(g)

Maybe we just aren't understanding each other ??? The shut out dogs were what I was refering to in my first statement....

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Posted by on 05-19-2010 08:19 PM:

Like I said above, strike points are minused or circled unless the dog was shutout on strike.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 05-19-2010 08:29 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by longshot
[B]Jim , what do you do with strike points on a dog that comes into a slick AFTER the judge arrives ? Thats what I referred to above in senario no. 2

It had to quit a track to come to that tree that late........so minus for quiting a track. Right or wrong?

Comr to think of it they have to quit a track to wind up at a slick tree....LOL

Posted by on 05-19-2010 08:37 PM:

Well the dog may have quit a track to come in late but the rules don't score as a track that was quit. The rules score it like longshot said in his post above. The tree must be scored before the strike points can be scored.

Posted by georgef072007 on 05-19-2010 09:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Three different rules might be applicable for dogs treeing but not declared treed when the judge arrives. Those three are 4(d) 4(g) and 5(a). Before you'll know which of the three applies to that dog you'll need to score the tree first.

1) If a coon is seen. 4(d) applies
2) If it's slick or offgame. 4(g) applies
3) If it's a circle tree. 5(a) applies.

Thanks Allen, I do think that rule 4(d) could use a bit better clarification in the case of a dog treeing but not declared tree'd where a coon is seen though. In my opinion a dog coming in to a tree is not quite the same thing, but if you say score it that way I have no problem doing that whatsoever.

Posted by longshot on 05-19-2010 10:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Like I said above, strike points are minused or circled unless the dog was shutout on strike.

What rule provides for circle strike points for a dog shut out on tree and arriving AFTER the judge? I always thought that rule 5(g) allowed strikes to be deleted when dogs come into a tree AFTER judge arrives where no coon is seen ?

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Posted by GA DAWG on 05-19-2010 11:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by longshot
What rule provides for circle strike points for a dog shut out on tree and arriving AFTER the judge? I always thought that rule 5(g) allowed strikes to be deleted when dogs come into a tree AFTER judge arrives where no coon is seen ?

Not unless they are shutout it dont..

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Posted by longshot on 05-20-2010 12:29 AM:

OK.....5(b) doesn't allow minus points for late dogs coming in after judge arrives(no coon seen) .... 5(g) says to delete a shutout dog's strike , so where do you come up with circle points for a dog that comes in after judge arrives ?

My understanding is , if a dog is struck in and then comes into a closed tree AFTER judge arrives where NO coon is seen , that dog gets his strike deleted ''per'' rule 5(g)

I can see where rule 5(a) would allow a dog NOT declared treed to be circled IF the game was in a hole , BUT if a tree is made and the 5 run and other dogs are declared treed , wouldn't 5(g) apply ?

If you guys are right , it would seem like the circle points would not be earned. Circle points have value , deleted points do not.

Also , if you guys are right , then what is rule 5(g) for ???

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Posted by jabrown on 05-20-2010 12:55 AM:

I think that the confusion may be in the terminology. Rule 5(g) "When dog that is shut out comes into tree shut out on."
This is refering to "shut out" not "closed tree". Here's UKC's definition of shut out:
Shut Out
If a dog is not struck in on trail before another dog in the cast is declared both struck and treed, that dog is considered shut out on that strike.

On some of the rule threads I have also wondered when and where and if 5(g) applies. It can get a little confusing on some of these threads. Usually because of a lack of info, or because we seem to sometimes get sidetracked onto "what if" scenarios that have little to do with answering the original question.

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Posted by longshot on 05-20-2010 02:58 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jabrown
On some of the rule threads I have also wondered when and where and if 5(g) applies. It can get a little confusing on some of these threads.

Jabrown , I agree that 5(g) does leave some confusion and probably needs some additional wording to clarify. I wish there were a simple way to score every tree in every senario , but there are alot of possibilities to what happens in live action.

I know that a dog that is shutout on strike gets deleted , but this arguement is about a dog that is carrying a strike position , then comes into a closed tree that is slick or off game after judge arrives....Jim says that dog gets strike circled and he is probably right , but I still don't see why that dog would deserve the reward of circle points instead of deleted points.

For the record , I have seen points deleted and points circled on dogs coming into these closed trees , AND I've even seen differant rulings from MOH's back at the club. Thankfully , it hasn't mattered in tiebreakers so far.

And your right Jabrown , this has nothing to do with the original question on this thread.

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Posted by jabrown on 05-20-2010 03:28 AM:

Longshot, it seems that you and I have the same confusion as to what to do with the strike points on the scenario that you described. I guess that you can't minus them because of rule 5(b). And you definitely can't plus em. So why is it that the only thing left to do is circle? It seems to me that the only fair thing to do would be to delete, but I know that it has been said numerous times that the points get circled. That's doesn't sound that terrible, but the question that I have is where is the rule that says circle strike points on a dog coming in to tree after judge arrives?
I'm not new to coon hunting but am very new to nite hunts and am trying really hard to make sure and know the rules in and out before I get in the woods, this one has stumped me for a while now.
By the way, Longshot what was the original question?

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Posted by longshot on 05-20-2010 03:58 AM:

Josh ,I've had some time to ''let it soak'' and I'm sure the circle is correct even though it don't seem right when you consider 5(g). Jim will be back and open our eyes.

It boils down to the fact that a dog is responsible for strike points unless he is shut out on strike. I suppose one could argue that he ''might'' deserve circle points because he was enticed into the tree by lights shining and squalling and was prevented from finishing his track and therefore deserves the circle ?

Maybe Allen at UKC will see this and reply also if he has time.

By the way Joshua 24:15 is my favorite vs also.

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Posted by jabrown on 05-20-2010 04:27 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by longshot

It boils down to the fact that a dog is responsible for strike points unless he is shut out on strike.

That's kinda what i came up with too. You don't delete unless they are shut out, you can't plus or minus them in this scenario, so circle is the only thing left I guess.

Did we just answer our own question? I guess maybe we should have started a different thread a long time ago.

And just so I don't get accused of never answering the original question: the dogs treeing but not declared treed recieve minus on track and nothing on tree 4(d).

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Posted by GA DAWG on 05-20-2010 05:35 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by longshot
OK.....5(b) doesn't allow minus points for late dogs coming in after judge arrives(no coon seen) .... 5(g) says to delete a shutout dog's strike , so where do you come up with circle points for a dog that comes in after judge arrives ?

My understanding is , if a dog is struck in and then comes into a closed tree AFTER judge arrives where NO coon is seen , that dog gets his strike deleted ''per'' rule 5(g)

I can see where rule 5(a) would allow a dog NOT declared treed to be circled IF the game was in a hole , BUT if a tree is made and the 5 run and other dogs are declared treed , wouldn't 5(g) apply ?

If you guys are right , it would seem like the circle points would not be earned. Circle points have value , deleted points do not.

Also , if you guys are right , then what is rule 5(g) for ???

It really should be deleted..Even one treeing when the judge arrives and ones treeing but not declared treed should be deleted on a circle tree..I mean that one circle strike COULD come back to beat you in the end if its tied but it just aint like that..I circle em cause JIM has told us all on here 10,000 times that you cant delete them

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Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 05-20-2010 01:03 PM:

If you have a circle situation, all dogs points are circle. All dogs at circle tree get circle points. If one dog at a tree gets circle points, all dogs at that tree get circle points.

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Posted by longshot on 05-20-2010 01:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by nccoonhunter197
If you have a circle situation, all dogs points are circle. All dogs at circle tree get circle points. If one dog at a tree gets circle points, all dogs at that tree get circle points.

We're not talking about all dogs here. We're talking about three dog taking minus on a slick and ONE dog getting circled for coming in after the cast gets there.

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