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-- JiM (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=353774)

JiM

I want your opinion, as you are about the only guy I agree with the majority of the time on UKC rule interpretations.

2 questions, neither was a big deal, but could have been.

Local hunt in Iowa.

#1

I was not in this cast, but was listening when the question was brought in.

a and b are struck, a and b are declared treed.

c is declared struck with a line.

guys get to the tree.

a and b are treeing their butts off. c is standing there at the tree. Not barking, not declared treed, shut out on strike.

The tree is bone dry slick. a and b are minused.

The question was what about C???

I know the strike points are deleted.

If I'm judging, I don't care if c is not treeing, barking, declared treed. It is my understanding that C doesn't have to be treeing, or barking. The rule says "come in" If C is there before the Judge, C is minused. The master of hounds, and everyone else looked at me like I was crazy because....." if C wasn't declared treed, and wasn't barking, of course C can't be minused". It was 3 am, I was two hours from home, and all I needed was a cast win to finish my dog to nite champion, so I just smiled, and said, see ya at the next one.

My second question, didn't even happen at the hunt, but some guys were talking about it and I overheard and offered my opinion.

Nite Ch cast.

Just say 3 dogs.

A B C struck

A B treed.

C still trailing.

Score A B tree.... Possum. Scratch.

Walk off and listen to C trail around and end up getting treed on the same tree a number of minutes later, after shining, and scoring said tree.

My understanding is that C is also scratched for XXXX during the authority of the Judge.

Different story if C comes in while they are shining, squalling etc, but they weren't.

MOH and a few other guys give the arguement that you can't score a tree that's already been scored. I say show me?? I show them the scratched for off game rule and they say nope, it was just in the advisor colum etc etc......


Weigh in when you get a minute.

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"Little Izzy"

I'm not Jim but we pretty much score things the same way.

The first one is very clear cut.
4g says "(g) Dogs treeing, but not declared treed, when Judge arrives, will be minused on tree points on "off" game or slick tree. Points will be determined by next available position in the case of one dog, or split available tree points in the case of two or more dogs. Dogs shut out on strike on slick tree or "off" game will receive minus tree points only."

In the first one there is no way to minus dog C. It must be at the tree TREEING (key word, dog must be activly treeing) when the judge arrives in order to recieve next available position. The rules are clear on that.

Since it was shut out on strike and was at the same tree then again, it has NO strike points to minus. Therefore dog C gets those strike points deleted (they already had a line under them anyway). 4g even clarifies that and says only tree points are available for scoring, but since he wasn't activly treeing then you can't assign him tree points so he gets away clean.

I would agree with you on the second case with the scratch. The rule only says points, and that was a NTCh dog molesting a possum under the authority of the judge.

However it is my opinion that rule should over ride everything since it is so black and white, but UKC doesn't see it that way and allows them to get away with treeing on a possum if they come in to the tree after the judge arrives. So who knows how UKC would rule on this one.

Until UKC tells me different then I would go with the scratch because that isn't awarding points plus or minus, it's scratching for treeing off game under the authority of the judge. If there is an Advisor that says different then I will go by the advisor, but until I see something different I would scratch.

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Are you sure RIP. Check out your advisor and reply on # 1.

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"Little Izzy"

I'm pretty sure Josh. The dog was shut out on strike so he had no strike points to minus, they don't exist since he was at the same tree.

You can't assign him tree points cause the dog has to actually be treeing to assign points so he can't get those minused either since he doesn't qualify to get points assigned to him.

Haven't seen any advisor to the contrary.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Rip
I'm pretty sure Josh. The dog was shut out on strike so he had no strike points to minus, they don't exist since he was at the same tree.

You can't assign him tree points cause the dog has to actually be treeing to assign points so he can't get those minused either since he doesn't qualify to get points assigned to him.

Haven't seen any advisor to the contrary.

---

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"Little Izzy"

I realize that the strike points are irrelevant, but my line of thinking is that the tree points should be minused on "off game or slick tree".

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"Little Izzy"

ie. the dog, when found standing at the tree in question, should have been assigned next available tree points, and when the tree was found to be slick, minused them.

That is the way I understand page 30 of the advisor.

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"Little Izzy"

It says nothing about treeing, being declared treed, barking or anything else. Just says come in to tree.

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"Little Izzy"

They would be if the dog was "treeing" when the judge arrived. He would be assigned next available tree points and minused.

BUT the key word is "treeing". The dog has to be activly showing tree when the judge arrives. Would you plus a dog under a coon that was just standing under the tree not treeing? Same deal here. If the dog is activly treeing then the dog gets assigned tree points. If he is just there then you can't assign him anything because he doesn't meet the qualifications of the rule. Above was a direct quote of the rule. It definately says "dogs TREEING" when judge arrives on off game or slick tree will be assigned next available position.

Again if there is an Advisor that says different well then I am wrong LOL.

I don't think there is though, seems like we have had this question several times on here and I can't ever rememer the official answer to be any different than what I posted above.

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A quote from page 30.

"Your question appears to concern what the term "come into tree" means. In most cases, "come into tree" is very obvious. It absolutely does not mean that a dog must "come in and tree" before he must be caught. Once in a while, it does require the use of some judgement. The Judge needs to decide, did the dog come in to the tree in question, or didn't he."


The more I read it, the more I'm torn with using 4d. or 4g.

You are basing your ruling on 4g as far as I can tell, with the "treeing" terminology.

I am basing mine on "coming in to the tree".

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"Little Izzy"

I'm not saying you are wrong for sure Rip. But you may be.

To get this straight. You are saying that because the dog wasn't barking, he is not minused. He's at the tree, standing there looking at it, but not treeing, and he is handled.

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"Little Izzy"

Yep, that's what I am saying.

You can't use any other rule because absolutely positively the only time you can ever assign points to a dog is when the dog is at the tree treing when the judge arrives on off game or slick tree as per rule 4g.

4d doesn't apply because in order for the dog to get minused it's strike a coon must be seen per the rule itself.

Besides that, any time a dog is shut out on strike and is at the same tree that the dogs that shut it out on are at then those strike points are deleted. That's why you put a line under them. Since the dog arrived at the tree with the dogs that had him shut out, those strike points never existed, so even if 4d applied, he had no strike points to minus, they didn't exist.

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I believe Rip Is correct on this as well. Josh I believe (as Rip) that you are missing the key word "Treeing but not declared treed) It doesn't sound like this dog was treeing thus shouldn't be penalized for something it wasn't doing.

I know the strike points are deleted. That was never in question at all

4d.

if dog comes in, minus on strike and nothing on tree if coon is seen.



?? so if coon is not seen (minus or slick) dog would be minused both ways. (in this case just tree points seeing as he was shut out on strike).

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"Little Izzy"

I understand where you are coming from Rip. "4g."

I'm just wondering if "4d" comes into play??

We are basically debating over "coming into tree" and "treeing"

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"Little Izzy"

4(d) doesn't apply because no coon was seen. The only way you use 4(d) is if the tree is plussed.

HA.

Rip and Jim. You got me. Just found what I was looking for to differentiate between the two. 154 in the advisor titled 4d or 4g. Thats funny.

I owe you guys a pop.

Jim, want to buy a single horse trailer??

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"Little Izzy"

Id say Rip is right as rain on the first one..

I dont think a dog can be scratched on a previously scored tree though......

Josh,

Have you ever bred that Gr Nite female you hunted at Canton a couple times? Dot maybe?? Sounds like she is/was a tough cookie. Pm me about her if you get some time.

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"Little Izzy"

quote:

---

Originally posted by josh
Id say Rip is right as rain on the first one..

I dont think a dog can be scratched on a previously scored tree though......

---

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I didn't know they made 1 horse trailers but I guess they make anything these days. I got a 3 horse slant. Just got my Fox Trotter back from the trainer yesterday. I think my mule riding days may be over. You got any good trail riding out there in S.D.?

Right where I'm at it's just so so in places, but just across the mighty mo, about 2 miles from my house as the crow flies is some of the most beautiful, roughest riverbluff riding in the country. More than once I've topped a big ole hill and had my breath taken away. You can see for miles and miles of the Missouri River Valley. Don't tell the rest of the country, but also some of the best coon hunting in the US, and I've seen it all.

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Home of 2009 SD State Champion

"Little Izzy"