UKC Forums - Rules Question: Treeing on closed tree

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-- Rules Question: Treeing on closed tree (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=339878)

Posted by Oak Ridge on 03-07-2010 06:04 PM:

Rules Question: Treeing on closed tree

Had a situation that came up in a hunt last night, and thought it would make for good conversation.

4 Dog cast. Dogs A&B go left handed, C&D go right handed. All dogs struck, C, D, A, then B in that order. Dogs A and B are declared treed , and as we start walking to them, Dog C is declared treed. We walk to A&B, and it takes 15 minutes to get to them from the truck....Dog C's tree is closed without any other dogs being delared treed.

Score A&B's tree as a den, and walk them and release them to dog D that is still "on track". We stop to get a bead on the dog that is declared treed, and Dog D is called treed....along side of Dog C...., then Dog B is also declared treed. Now remember, Dog C's tree has been closed for about 20 minutes now.

Upon arrival to Dog C, all four dogs are there....they have pulled a coon out of a root ball along the river and have killed it.

The rules are clear as to how to handle Dog C....delete tree points and plus the strike. Dog D since struck before Dog C treed, would also get plus strike points.

The question becomes, how do you handle the second set of tree points?

My belief that is that if you declare your dog treed after a tree is closed, your dog must be split, or it must have moved....so in this case, dogs D &B would have minus tree points (125 and 75), Dog D would have plus strike, and dog be would have deleted strike points.....

(Dog A never opened that we heard, I'm thinking he was responsible for the coon coming out of the root wad, and his mouth was full of coon when we got there )

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Posted by buck brush on 03-07-2010 06:28 PM:

from what you are saying dog c tree had been closed for a long time, yes the dogs d and b should have went in for 125 and 75 because the tree was closed not knowing if they where on the same tree or not ( but ) when you get there all dogs had a coon on the ground, if you can not prove that B and D moved witch it sounds like you could not ALL tree points should have been deleted and since B and D had to be struck back in before they could be treed all dogs that where struck in would reseive plus strick points, that is the breaks when they pull a coon from a hole

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 03-07-2010 06:36 PM:

Skip,

That is the way we scored it...but I'm still not satisfied with that answer.

The two that were treed late, could not have recieved plus tree points if they were with Dog C....We knew dog C did NOT move...could be heard the whole time.

My understanding is that you can not tree in on a closed tree, but instead are saying that the dogs treed "late" are split treed...and subject to minus points if they are on the same tree....so why would this be different? If we could have gotten there 40 seconds earlier...the dogs would not have pulled it out of the hole!

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UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by buck brush on 03-07-2010 07:01 PM:

YES if you would have gotten there 40 seconds sooner BUT you did not (that is the breaks) and yes if they would have not pulled it out and was still treed when you got there dogs D and B would have been min. there strick and tree point if the coon would have been seen and i think dog A would get nothing since he was not struck or treed.

after looking at the rules and thinking about this i do not know if they would have received min. trre points or not since the time was up on the tree, you might have had to deleit there tree points and min. strick point only rule 4 D

Posted by GA DAWG on 03-07-2010 07:39 PM:

Was b struck before d was treed?

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Posted by Maniac on 03-07-2010 07:57 PM:

they also take minus on track

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Posted by Smoothaction on 03-07-2010 08:06 PM:

if dogs released were shut out before striking in there strike points would be deleted because on the same tree as shut out on,rules state that the only way a dog to recieve pionts on track that are shut out on they have to show different tree which was not the case.

Posted by Maniac on 03-07-2010 08:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Smoothaction
if dogs released were shut out before striking in there strike points would be deleted because on the same tree as shut out on,rules state that the only way a dog to recieve pionts on track that are shut out on they have to show different tree which was not the case.

you are rihgt the dog that was shut out on strike would be delete.

Posted by Maniac on 03-07-2010 08:21 PM:

c is plus strike d minus strike and tree was b shut out on strike if so b strike would be delete and if b was treed in after tree close he would take 125- also and delete strike points

Posted by Cornbelt on 03-07-2010 08:27 PM:

You can't delete the strike points since when the cast arrived there was no tree (coon out of hole). The strike points would have been put on the card with a line under them since a dog was treeing when they were struck in. The tree points could have only went on the card as if the dogs were split from the closed tree. IMO the dogs treed late as split should have been minused. C was still at his tree/hole when the cast arrived, if the others were with him, they left the tree they were declared split on.

I believe all dogs treed late should have had split tree points on the card and been minused on those tree points and plussed on strike. C would have tree points deleted and be plussed on strike.

In other words dogs put on card as split are responsible for those split points.

The rest would be scored just like a hole where the coon is caught. No tree points awarded so you can't be shut out on strike.

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Posted by josh on 03-07-2010 08:32 PM:

I dont know how you can be 'shut out' on a coon caught on the ground.

Tree points are deleted. plus the strikes.

Posted by Smoothaction on 03-07-2010 08:55 PM:

RULE STATES THAT IN HOLE OR OTHER OBSTRUCTIONS ONLY ONE DOG HAS TO SHOW IT IF HANDLERS WERE ABLE TO DETERMINE IT WAS A HOLE OR STUMP AS INDICATED ON ORIGANAL POST IT IS SCORED AS SUCH.

Posted by on 03-07-2010 09:17 PM:

I agree with josh. As soon as you find the dogs with a coon caught on the ground, all tree points are deleted. Rule 4(k) goes down the drain as soon as you find them with a coon in their mouth.
And yep, this is a good question.

Posted by on 03-07-2010 09:26 PM:

My guess is that the "official" answer will come from whether or not 3(b) overrules 4(k). I'm guessing it does.

Posted by Cornbelt on 03-07-2010 09:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
I agree with josh. As soon as you find the dogs with a coon caught on the ground, all tree points are deleted. Rule 4(k) goes down the drain as soon as you find them with a coon in their mouth.
And yep, this is a good question.

Why would you delete the dogs tree points that were split treed?

Even if they all end up with the same coon they were put on the card on separate trees. I would think one tree or the other would have to be minused.

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Posted by Cornbelt on 03-07-2010 10:03 PM:

3.(b) When dog is declared struck and treed and coon is seen other than in tree, dog declared treed to receive strike and tree points. Dogs not declared treed, strike points only. If dog catches coon, strike points only.

4.*(k) Any dogs declared treed after five minutes expires and tree is closed; call will be accepted as a split tree. If dog is on closed tree when judge arrives, tree points will be minused. Strike points scored in accordance with 4(d)

Here are the two rules Jim is referring to. I still think the dogs split would have to be showing a split tree/hole/coon of there own. And if they are with the dog originally treed they would be minused. However it does say they need to be on closed tree to get minused. Maybe that is the out for the dogs declared split since the coon was caught.

So if dogs leave a split tree and have a coon can you minus them? I would think so.

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Posted by longshot on 03-07-2010 10:06 PM:

My guess is that the tree points had to be accepted as a split since the first tree was closed.

When arriving and all dogs are togather , wouldn't it result in minus tree points on all dogs declared split ?

This one is a headache !

The stange thing is , they would get minus on tree for leaving a split , but plus on strike for a caught coon ?

No wait , their strike is deleted becasue they are shut out because it don't count on a closed tree.?? lol

BUT it wasn't a tree ??

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Posted by Smoothaction on 03-07-2010 10:32 PM:

GOOD POST SOMETIMES THINGS ARE ALOT SIMPLER IN THE WOODS IF WE WOULD JUST STOP TO THINK THEM OUT!

Posted by on 03-07-2010 10:42 PM:

You guys that say the dogs carded as split treed should be minused tree points just may be right. I sure can't say for certain. There is a decent arguement for both sides. This really is a good question. I'm looking forward to seeing the UKC answer.

Posted by josh on 03-07-2010 10:50 PM:

yea, it seems wrong to just delete the tree points, but once the coon is caught on the ground, its a done deal.IMO.

Posted by longshot on 03-07-2010 11:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cornbelt
I believe all dogs treed late should have had split tree points on the card and been minused on those tree points and plussed on strike. C would have tree points deleted and be plussed on strike.

This has to be the only correct way to score it IMO .

Dog C's tree points were gone (deleted) the second the coon came out. This instantly makes all strike points scoreable and they are plussed for all dogs with the coon.

Dog C caught a bad break when the coon came out and lost tree points credit at that time , AND made the other dogs eligible for strike points.

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 03-07-2010 11:33 PM:

So in my mind, there are two decisions that need to be made in this situation.

#1....what to do with the split tree points
#2....what to do with dog B's strike points....since that dog was not struck until AFTER the original dog was treed.....

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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 03-07-2010 11:37 PM:

4d If dog declared treed, after 5 minutes has elapsed no additional dog can be declared treed at that particular tree but if they come in to tree will get minus on track and nothing on tree if coon is seen.

Posted by elvis on 03-07-2010 11:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Oak Ridge
So in my mind, there are two decisions that need to be made in this situation.

#1....what to do with the split tree points
#2....what to do with dog B's strike points....since that dog was not struck until AFTER the original dog was treed.....

delete all tree points.
plus all strike points, there is no tree involved, it was deleted.

Posted by Maniac on 03-07-2010 11:45 PM:

why would you delete all tree points?

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