UKC Forums - Hunt question..."agressive dog"

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Posted by Traxx Addict on 02-27-2010 06:28 PM:

Hunt question..."agressive dog"

Dogs are cast...As dogs are running side by side towards the timber one of the dogs reaches over and grabs grabs the other dog and starts a brief squabble....

Judge says the dog that did the actually "grabbing" and growling was not at fault because the other dog "provoked" the "attack" by running closely along side and bumping against the other dog.

Was he right??

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 02-27-2010 06:32 PM:

you have got to be kidding!! let me guess, the growly dog was the judges dog..

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Posted by Traxx Addict on 02-27-2010 06:40 PM:

No....it was another guys dog.

This happened to me last night after hearing the MOH at setwd's give a long speech on "using common sense" when judging a cast. LOL!

This was less than 1 minute into the hunt.

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Posted by Jack Bingham on 02-27-2010 06:46 PM:

Lol never amazes me the stuff guys say to keep from scratching a dog. The running and bumping happens all the time when dogs are cut loose that is not aggressive behavior or interference. the dog that done the grabbing is gone.

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 02-27-2010 06:47 PM:

well maybe there wasn't a fight. but there was agressive behavior, maybe it didn't interfere with the other dog. but saying the other dog was the trouble maker for having incidental contact after casting is ridiculous..

Posted by Traxx Addict on 02-27-2010 06:50 PM:

That's what I thought Dan but I didn't press the issue. I told them that my dog didn't do the grabbing and that "rubbing is racing" LOL! I was told later that the same dog that grabbed my dog was face barking on the tree and was withdrawn later that night.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 02-27-2010 06:51 PM:

Wont be popular but i would say the judge was right. Two elements required to scratch a dog, aggressive behavior AND interference, sounds to me like you only had one.

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Posted by wayne f on 02-27-2010 07:06 PM:

you can't tell me you didn't have both the one hound grabbed another hound if that isn't aggesive behaviour and interferance what is if the grabbed dog was held if only a short period that dogs movements were interfered with

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Posted by buck brush on 02-27-2010 07:11 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by john Duemmer
Wont be popular but i would say the judge was right. Two elements required to scratch a dog, aggressive behavior AND interference, sounds to me like you only had one. [/QUOTE

if a dog grabing another dog is not aggressive behavior and interference I do not know what is.

and on a nother note you can scratch a dog for interference that is not show aggresive behavior, and you can also scratch one that is being aggresive and interfering with another dog.

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Posted by BRANDON KING on 02-27-2010 07:19 PM:

If i am judging a cast and the dogs get in fight in the box im scratching them. Stop it before it gets to the woods.

Posted by john Duemmer on 02-27-2010 07:21 PM:

OK ill bite which rule allows you to scratch a dog for interfearance without aggression? The way this was described 1 dog interfeared and 1 dog showed aggression but neither dog showed both.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 02-27-2010 07:23 PM:

Brandon you can do whatever you like but if the handler puts a question on the card your scratch will be overturned.

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 02-27-2010 07:24 PM:

a dog riding another dog trying to breed would be interference without aggressive behavior..that would be about it.

Posted by on 02-27-2010 07:29 PM:

So, if two dogs are treed, dog (A) grabs another dog (B) by the skin on his neck and starts pullin, and dog (B) keeps treein, you cannot scratch dog A? That would be aggression without interference? Another question :
Two dogs are on lead, behind trucks waiting to be cast. Dog A stiff legs up to Dog B and starts growling. Can dog A be scratched for aggressive behavior? I am by no means an expert on the rules, but if the answer to these two scenarios is no, I wont be judging any more casts nor entering any more hunts...

Posted by john Duemmer on 02-27-2010 07:34 PM:

Blue style, First one would be a judgement call, not very realistic. Second example no you cant.

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 02-27-2010 07:37 PM:

if a dog makes contact by biting it should be scratched. if the dog is brissling up on a lead no..but if you turned loose and the brissling dog turns around and keeps a dog from going out by faceing him off and keeping the other dog from going hunting, i would scratch him. because he is interfering with the other dog from hunting..

Posted by on 02-27-2010 07:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Blue style, First one would be a judgement call, not very realistic. Second example no you cant.

Mr Duemmer, that first scenario I have seen happen. Ah well, I never did care for the hunts much anyway, if you cant scratch a dog for aggressive behavior that is seen, that is sad.

Posted by buck brush on 02-27-2010 07:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
OK ill bite which rule allows you to scratch a dog for interfearance without aggression? The way this was described 1 dog interfeared and 1 dog showed aggression but neither dog showed both.

you are looking at the rule 6c that tells you why a dog should be scratched for fighting,
if i would have been the judge the dog that did the grabing would have been gone, and the man would not have had a chance to with draw his dog later for face barking another dog as stated because i would have scratched him for that also heck who know that might have been his 3rd time then knowone would have to put up with him for a year.

that is one of the problems in the hunts to many people let the face barkers and growly dogs get away with to much then the next week they are right back out there doing the same thing and it is a bunch of BS

Posted by Regan H on 02-27-2010 08:10 PM:

Buck Brush

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Posted by gfults on 02-27-2010 08:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by buck brush
you are looking at the rule 6c that tells you why a dog should be scratched for fighting,
if i would have been the judge the dog that did the grabing would have been gone, and the man would not have had a chance to with draw his dog later for face barking another dog as stated because i would have scratched him for that also heck who know that might have been his 3rd time then knowone would have to put up with him for a year.

that is one of the problems in the hunts to many people let the face barkers and growly dogs get away with to much then the next week they are right back out there doing the same thing and it is a bunch of BS

I get tickled every time I hear some guy brag about how he would scratch a dog for growling or face barking like they rule the world and the RULES mean nothing to them. If my dog was doing a little facebarking and wasnt interfering with another dog, you'd play hell getting me scratched because any MOH with any sense knows thats NOT enough grounds to scratch a dog. And if a MOH is as big an idiot as the judge, I'd appeal to UKC and WIN the question. The rules are clear. Go by the rules when you judge me or you may find yourself written up for handler misconduct!

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Posted by gfults on 02-27-2010 08:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Blue Style
Mr Duemmer, that first scenario I have seen happen. Ah well, I never did care for the hunts much anyway, if you cant scratch a dog for aggressive behavior that is seen, that is sad.

The reason you cant scratch for aggressive behavior alone mis because of so many interpretations of whats aggressive and whats not. Some are rediculous, usually made up by someone whos dog left a tree and they are looking for an excuse! If a dog runs a tree and falls on another dog causing a brief squabble, whos the agressor??

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Posted by Jack Bingham on 02-27-2010 08:55 PM:

Once a dog grabs another he is gone. don't need interference for this. Face barking is not scratchable unless it is interfering with your dogs tree style. which i have not seen happen.

Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 02-27-2010 09:01 PM:

I had to explain this to a guy one night after I wrote his dog up. His dog was pushed all night by another dog and finally as most dumb luck would have it, it had enough and fought back and got caught. I explained it this way. His dog was caught in the act of fighting. The other dog was still on the tree, treeing. Interference is when another dog is basically hindering another dog from doing what it is supposed to do, hunt. In the senerio the dog that grabbed the other dog should have been scratched, because you had aggressive behavior and it hindered the other dog from going hunting. If only for a moment. I am a MOH and I would uphold that decision. The call the judge made, I would over turn. Wrong call. Bad brake for you. You should have questioned it.

As far as facebarking goes, it can be deemed aggressive behavior if the judge thinks it is interfering with the other dogs. Remember that a judge makes that call, not a vote of the cast or what one person says. It is a judgment call on the judges part. If he thinks it is hindering the other dogs from doing their job, that dog is scratched. If your dog facebarks and that makes a normally on the wood tree dog back off, that is interfering with another dog. Still, it is a judgment call.

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Posted by gfults on 02-27-2010 09:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jack Bingham
Once a dog grabs another he is gone. don't need interference for this. Face barking is not scratchable unless it is interfering with your dogs tree style. which i have not seen happen.

YES, you do need interference for this! Read the RULES!

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Posted by gfults on 02-27-2010 09:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by nccoonhunter197
I had to explain this to a guy one night after I wrote his dog up. His dog was pushed all night by another dog and finally as most dumb luck would have it, it had enough and fought back and got caught. I explained it this way. His dog was caught in the act of fighting. The other dog was still on the tree, treeing. Interference is when another dog is basically hindering another dog from doing what it is supposed to do, hunt. In the senerio the dog that grabbed the other dog should have been scratched, because you had aggressive behavior and it hindered the other dog from going hunting. If only for a moment. I am a MOH and I would uphold that decision. The call the judge made, I would over turn. Wrong call. Bad brake for you. You should have questioned it.

As far as facebarking goes, it can be deemed aggressive behavior if the judge thinks it is interfering with the other dogs. Remember that a judge makes that call, not a vote of the cast or what one person says. It is a judgment call on the judges part. If he thinks it is hindering the other dogs from doing their job, that dog is scratched. If your dog facebarks and that makes a normally on the wood tree dog back off, that is interfering with another dog. Still, it is a judgment call.

I agree 100%

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