UKC Forums - thoughts on a rule change

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Posted by Russell O'Neal on 02-25-2010 04:53 AM:

thoughts on a rule change

I am curious how many folks would support a rule change in UKC about in order to become a GRAND NITE CHAMPION have 5 cast wins OR 20 cast wins.

Some people get tired of trying after 20 or 30 cast wins just to be beat by someone by 25 points. I am just throwing it out there .

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Posted by SFWALKER on 02-25-2010 08:41 AM:

I think its a great idea. A buddy of mine has a dog that is well deserving of the Grand Nite Champion title. He has won 14 casts with him, and only 3 of those won the hunt. He has pretty much given up...

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Posted by opie on 02-25-2010 10:06 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by SFWALKER
I think its a great idea. A buddy of mine has a dog that is well deserving of the Grand Nite Champion title. He has won 14 casts with him, and only 3 of those won the hunt. He has pretty much given up...

Shoot dont give up now ur only two away!!! Ive seen some FLAT OUT COONDOGS I mean crazy consistant about winning there cast and not do as good as what you have mentioned above.. A few years ago I sold a heavy heavy clover bred female when i decided to go to all redbones and i put her in 7 hunts and she was a nite ch with 1 win towards grand when I sold her to a guy up in Illinois she was a real real nice gyp the only fault i had that i didnt like was she would dig at the tree barking a 100 bpm right at her feet the whole time! But anyway the guy that bought the gyp loved her and he won his cast 41 times before she made grand nite champion!! and quite a few times he came in with real nice score's only to be beat out by 50 or 100 points. he won 3 differnt cast that come to mind that he didnt get a win toward grand with that just turned my stomach hearing it. one was 1375+ no win torward grand and the another was 1062 1/2+ and no win toward grand and the other was 825+ and no win toward grand!!!!! Them are the rough ones!!!LOL But hey if what he's packin is a coondog and it sounds to me like it is.. It will happen... But hey keep ur head up an good luck on that ol GRAND NITE CHAMPION trail. It's a rough trail at times but if ya like to comp hunt it's worth it's wait in gold at the end!!! later

PS: SO I GUESS WHAT I JUST TOOK A REAL LONG TIME TO SAY WAS, MY VOTE IS TO KEEP IT JUST THE WAY IT IS! CAUSE IF'N YA DONT LOOK AT ALL THE GRAND NITE'S ALIVE NOW THAT HAD TO DO IT THE HARD WAY AND ALL THE ONES OF THE PAST THAT HAD TO DO IT THE HARD WAY! THE '''''GRAND NITE CHAMPION'''''' TITLE IN IT'S SELF JUST WOULD'NT MEAN NEAR AS MUCH IF YOU CHANGED IT ANY!!!

IT'S ALREADY EASIER NOW THAN EVER BEFORE. WITH THE SMALLER AMOUNT OF CAST WE HAVE, AT THE AVERAGE WEEKEND CLUB HUNTS NEAR US TODAY VERSE YESTER YEAR! BUT THATS AN UNCONTROLABLE ADVANTAGE, WE HAVE TODAY. COMPARED TO THE GRANDNITE'S OF THE PAST... THIS IS STRICTLY ((((JMO))))) AND WE ALL KNOW WHAT THE SAY ABOUT THOSE!?!?!?!?! LOL GOOD LUCK AND HUNTIN TO ALL!

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Posted by johnson1970_rdj on 02-25-2010 12:13 PM:

this is just my opion I think it should stay the way it is with one change after you get your 5 wins a rep from ukc or a offical MOH should go hunting with the dog by itself and see the dog run and tree by itself.... the dog must run and tree and stay treed 5 min and see a coon.... there are too may nt.ch and gr.nt out here today that cant tree a coon by his or herself thank you roger

Posted by on 02-25-2010 12:37 PM:

This is where this one always goes, one person thinks it's too tough and the next person says too many of them can't tree a coon.
All of you are missing what the title means. It is just a standard. FIVE NtCh WINS!
That is what a GrNtCh is. It is a dog that won 5 Nt Ch hunts. It doesn't say it is a coondog, it doesn't say it trees coons alone, it doesn't say it is better than a grade dog and it doesn't say it is better than your dog. It just says the dog won 5 times.
If your dog can't get the 5 first place wins neccessary to meet the GrNt standard, your dog doesn't deserve the GrNt title. Simple as that.

Posted by treberta on 02-25-2010 12:59 PM:

In my oppinion it's too easy. Everyone wants things to be easy easy easy. It should be 10 Nite Ch wins.

If youre friend has that many cast wins and only 3 wins to Grand the dog must not be having much + points.

Posted by bullrider19591 on 02-25-2010 01:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by johnson1970_rdj
this is just my opion I think it should stay the way it is with one change after you get your 5 wins a rep from ukc or a offical MOH should go hunting with the dog by itself and see the dog run and tree by itself.... the dog must run and tree and stay treed 5 min and see a coon.... there are too may nt.ch and gr.nt out here today that cant tree a coon by his or herself thank you roger

im with u . i have seen alot of dogs that couldnt tree one on his or her own. i think when it makes nt. ch or gr.nt ch it should have to go to a HTX hunt. that just me tho

Posted by on 02-25-2010 01:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by bullrider19591
im with u . i have seen alot of dogs that couldnt tree one on his or her own. i think when it makes nt. ch or gr.nt ch it should have to go to a HTX hunt. that just me tho

What Jim said is a fact a lot of people over look. The title isn't COONDOG its GNCH that's it. You do realize that there is only a few states that even have HTX.

Posted by bullrider19591 on 02-25-2010 01:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Joey
What Jim said is a fact a lot of people over look. The title isn't COONDOG its GNCH that's it. You do realize that there is only a few states that even have HTX.

that true but when they get gnch they what to breed dogs. that true all states dont have HTX but they can get one strated

Posted by nkisamo1 on 02-25-2010 02:39 PM:

It's too easy now. There is too many Grand Nites. And you want to make it easier. Get a better dog.

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Posted by jculler8 on 02-25-2010 10:20 PM:

Re: thoughts on a rule change

quote:
Originally posted by eagleone
I am curious how many folks would support a rule change in UKC about in order to become a GRAND NITE CHAMPION have 5 cast wins OR 20 cast wins.

Some people get tired of trying after 20 or 30 cast wins just to be beat by someone by 25 points. I am just throwing it out there .

Hey Russell, I know of plenty of clubs in our area that only get 1-2 NITECH casts.

If someone is that concerned or bent out of shape about winning 20-30 casts and not getting a win towards GRAND, then they need to do some research and hit up the clubs that only draw 1-2 NITECH casts consistently.

Before people start bashing this, please take note that I wrote, "If someone is that concerned or bent out of shape..."

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Posted by SFWALKER on 02-25-2010 10:25 PM:

Just my opinion, but I would like to see it go to cast wins. When you beat the dogs in your cast you did all you can do. You can't help it if another cast is guided to a honey hole. I would like to see it be at least 20 or 25 cast wins though. I think if a dog wins 20 casts, the dog and the owner deserve that title for their consistency, not to mention time and money. JMO.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 02-25-2010 10:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
This is where this one always goes, one person thinks it's too tough and the next person says too many of them can't tree a coon.
All of you are missing what the title means. It is just a standard. FIVE NtCh WINS!
That is what a GrNtCh is. It is a dog that won 5 Nt Ch hunts. It doesn't say it is a coondog, it doesn't say it trees coons alone, it doesn't say it is better than a grade dog and it doesn't say it is better than your dog. It just says the dog won 5 times.
If your dog can't get the 5 first place wins neccessary to meet the GrNt standard, your dog doesn't deserve the GrNt title. Simple as that.

LMAO Best I have seen it put.......................pretty simple when you think about it like that..........

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Posted by englishpride on 02-25-2010 10:38 PM:

20 cast wins is not easy but it is heartbreaking when you dont get a good guide and you know you had the best hound there just because a dog doesnt come back high scorer 5 times doesnt mean they dont deserve the title...that is why i love R.Q.E.it is a win my cast type of deal.i mean really if you had a honey hole and you won 5 times do you think that dog is more deserving than the one who has won 20.

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Posted by on 02-25-2010 10:52 PM:

It has nothing to do with "deserves". It has only to do with meeting the standard.
On the the other hand, this is the complaint we should expect when "you know you had the best dog" and didnt win. Way ta slap down anyone who beats your dog.

Posted by Russell O'Neal on 02-26-2010 12:03 AM:

Like I said I was just throwing it out there.

Here where I hunt in PA you only get 1 ,2 maybe 3 NTCH casts if you are luck. If you draw me for a guide you will never hunt over a feeder bucket you will have to tree coon IN THE WILD , not OVER BAIT . But how many GRNTCH are made over bait ? I don't care but it gets hard to swallow you come home with 850+ and someome comes in with 875 +. I know that is the name of the game but you have to admit that gets old.

As far as the titles go if a Dog has a HTX at the end of they name I would look more at that because I know how some of the GRNTCH are MADE.

Maybe 20 cast wins with plus points AND a HTX title ?

Posted by opie on 02-26-2010 12:15 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by opie
Shoot dont give up now ur only two away!!! Ive seen some FLAT OUT COONDOGS I mean crazy consistant about winning there cast and not do as good as what you have mentioned above.. A few years ago I sold a heavy heavy clover bred female when i decided to go to all redbones and i put her in 7 hunts and she was a nite ch with 1 win towards grand when I sold her to a guy up in Illinois she was a real real nice gyp the only fault i had that i didnt like was she would dig at the tree barking a 100 bpm right at her feet the whole time! But anyway the guy that bought the gyp loved her and he won his cast 41 times before she made grand nite champion!! and quite a few times he came in with real nice score's only to be beat out by 50 or 100 points. he won 3 differnt cast that come to mind that he didnt get a win toward grand with that just turned my stomach hearing it. one was 1375+ no win torward grand and the another was 1062 1/2+ and no win toward grand and the other was 825+ and no win toward grand!!!!! Them are the rough ones!!!LOL But hey if what he's packin is a coondog and it sounds to me like it is.. It will happen... But hey keep ur head up an good luck on that ol GRAND NITE CHAMPION trail. It's a rough trail at times but if ya like to comp hunt it's worth it's wait in gold at the end!!! later

PS: SO I GUESS WHAT I JUST TOOK A REAL LONG TIME TO SAY WAS, MY VOTE IS TO KEEP IT JUST THE WAY IT IS! CAUSE IF'N YA DONT LOOK AT ALL THE GRAND NITE'S ALIVE NOW THAT HAD TO DO IT THE HARD WAY AND ALL THE ONES OF THE PAST THAT HAD TO DO IT THE HARD WAY! THE '''''GRAND NITE CHAMPION'''''' TITLE IN IT'S SELF JUST WOULD'NT MEAN NEAR AS MUCH IF YOU CHANGED IT ANY!!!

IT'S ALREADY EASIER NOW THAN EVER BEFORE. WITH THE SMALLER AMOUNT OF CAST WE HAVE, AT THE AVERAGE WEEKEND CLUB HUNTS NEAR US TODAY VERSE YESTER YEAR! BUT THATS AN UNCONTROLABLE ADVANTAGE, WE HAVE TODAY. COMPARED TO THE GRANDNITE'S OF THE PAST... THIS IS STRICTLY ((((JMO))))) AND WE ALL KNOW WHAT THE SAY ABOUT THOSE!?!?!?!?! LOL GOOD LUCK AND HUNTIN TO ALL!

WHO AGREES WITH MY POST??????

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Posted by POTOMAC on 02-26-2010 12:16 AM:

on the other hand think about 15 years ago when there would be 40-60 hounds at a local small hunt that to me was when a title really counted.jmo its alot easier today then back then.

Posted by englishpride on 02-26-2010 12:17 AM:

jim

wasnt slapping down noone if someone wanted to have a hunt off with all the cast winners that would be fine with me to but unfortunately i dont have MONEY and prime hunting land like alot of other people do so yes it is very discouraging to have 14 cast wins and only 1 win toward grand nite but i see you must be one of those people who has plenty of coon so you wouldnt know what it felt like.down here in S.C. 2 COONS IS A GREAT NITE unless you have a honey hole so yes it is discouraging to see hounds grand out that you have beat time and time again at other clubs.the man asked a question i gave my opion so dont act like im a poor sportsman for that or you can come down to S.C. JUDGE my little hound for yourself on this run to death game management land we have to hunt then you can see what coon hunting is all about.bring waders guaranteed to get wet,be prepared to walk miles and bring a machette and your very best dog dont want you to go home thinking your hound could have done a better job.......................

Posted by jculler8 on 02-26-2010 12:24 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by eagleone
Like I said I was just throwing it out there.

Here where I hunt in PA you only get 1 ,2 maybe 3 NTCH casts if you are luck. If you draw me for a guide you will never hunt over a feeder bucket you will have to tree coon IN THE WILD , not OVER BAIT . But how many GRNTCH are made over bait ? I don't care but it gets hard to swallow you come home with 850+ and someome comes in with 875 +. I know that is the name of the game but you have to admit that gets old.

As far as the titles go if a Dog has a HTX at the end of they name I would look more at that because I know how some of the GRNTCH are MADE.

Maybe 20 cast wins with plus points AND a HTX title ?

Russell, I know you were at the Little Mountain Music Hunt last year at our club. I won 1st place NITE CHAMPION that night with a dog that I do not even own or have much of a hand in. He scored 775+ that night. We didn't hit 1 feeder the whole night. In fact, I have taken 1 cast to feeders in my 4 years of guiding at our club, or any others that I guide out of. That night that I took to feeder woods, I in fact didn't even win the cast, and I learned my lesson that my dog is too independent to win a cast hunting over feeders.

My Belle bitch has put up anywhere from 550+ to 1175+ here in PENNSYLVANIA on several occasions. All of those were while she was UNDER 3 years of age! On none of those casts that she won did she hunt over feeders or have a "touched up card". She put up the scores on her own, and I in fact can say she was the BEST NITECH dog there on those nights and we BOTH DESERVED the win we got!

So not everytime that someone gets beat here in PA by a big score can they say it was because of feeders or cheaters.

It's a game to play... I know of a few nights where there were only 1, 2 or 3 NITECH casts and I was sitting at 400+ up by 2 coons and took a gamble knowing the other cast(s) were hunting off feeders... only to come back and find out they had only had 350+ and I lost out on my gamble. Did it bother me? Somewhat yes, but I was back at it the next weekend trying again!

Russell come down to a meeting this spring and I'd love take you out afterwards to some of the spots I guide out to and you will be able to see how easy it is to get up over 500+ in no time around here in a 2hr hunt.

Posted by jculler8 on 02-26-2010 12:28 AM:

Re: jim

quote:
Originally posted by englishpride
wasnt slapping down noone if someone wanted to have a hunt off with all the cast winners that would be fine with me to but unfortunately i dont have MONEY and prime hunting land like alot of other people do so yes it is very discouraging to have 14 cast wins and only 1 win toward grand nite but i see you must be one of those people who has plenty of coon so you wouldnt know what it felt like.down here in S.C. 2 COONS IS A GREAT NITE unless you have a honey hole so yes it is discouraging to see hounds grand out that you have beat time and time again at other clubs.the man asked a question i gave my opion so dont act like im a poor sportsman for that or you can come down to S.C. JUDGE my little hound for yourself on this run to death game management land we have to hunt then you can see what coon hunting is all about.bring waders guaranteed to get wet,be prepared to walk miles and bring a machette and your very best dog dont want you to go home thinking your hound could have done a better job.......................

It's called do your homework (bc it seems like the people that are beating you are), become friends with SEVERAL farmers that allow competition hunting and forget about the overrun state land.

Honestly it is not that hard to do! I know of several guys who travel to hunts all over the United States. Do they know people with prime farmland to hunt EVERYWHERE they go? Absolutely not. If you ask, most of those guys are there a week ahead of time and travel around during the days to farms asking permission to hunt for the week! Do a little leg work if you are that concerned with a GRNITECH title and EARN your wins!

Posted by Russell O'Neal on 02-26-2010 09:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jculler8
Russell, I know you were at the Little Mountain Music Hunt last year at our club. I won 1st place NITE CHAMPION that night with a dog that I do not even own or have much of a hand in. He scored 775+ that night. We didn't hit 1 feeder the whole night. In fact, I have taken 1 cast to feeders in my 4 years of guiding at our club, or any others that I guide out of. That night that I took to feeder woods, I in fact didn't even win the cast, and I learned my lesson that my dog is too independent to win a cast hunting over feeders.

My Belle bitch has put up anywhere from 550+ to 1175+ here in PENNSYLVANIA on several occasions. All of those were while she was UNDER 3 years of age! On none of those casts that she won did she hunt over feeders or have a "touched up card". She put up the scores on her own, and I in fact can say she was the BEST NITECH dog there on those nights and we BOTH DESERVED the win we got!

So not everytime that someone gets beat here in PA by a big score can they say it was because of feeders or cheaters.

It's a game to play... I know of a few nights where there were only 1, 2 or 3 NITECH casts and I was sitting at 400+ up by 2 coons and took a gamble knowing the other cast(s) were hunting off feeders... only to come back and find out they had only had 350+ and I lost out on my gamble. Did it bother me? Somewhat yes, but I was back at it the next weekend trying again!

Russell come down to a meeting this spring and I'd love take you out afterwards to some of the spots I guide out to and you will be able to see how easy it is to get up over 500+ in no time around here in a 2hr hunt.

I know that Blairsville has some great hunting without feeders that is why I drive 80 mile one way to hunt in that country I have scored as high as 1250+ out of there. got beat and had a great time went back again . I haven't hunted in the hunts for a while because I got burnt out hunting every weekend but I am now ready to start hunting them again. Not like I use to .

where I am at if you are under 3 coon in a 2hr hunt you are hunting wild coon anymore then that it would be feeders .unless it is the spring, or sweet corn season, or private ground.

I would love to come up and go hunting pm me and tell me when jculler8

Posted by jculler8 on 02-26-2010 09:53 PM:

Hey Russell I just sent ya a PM

Posted by on 02-26-2010 11:04 PM:

I don't real like the fact that I can go to hunt and enter a Nite Ch, go out and win my cast but get back to the club to find out the other Nite Ch cast brought in a score 25 pts better, making my trip and effort worth absolutely nothing. No cast win money, no points towards a title... nothing.

I really don't have any issue with UKC's format for titling dogs. No buddy asks how a dog got its wins to earn that title. Doesn't matter if you earn all those wins at major events or at rinky dink local hunts that could only draw 1 cast. The title means the same regardless of how a dog earned it.

I know UKC Beagles take all they're Open cast winners and have a hunt off for the 1st place win. I believe the wins are awarded in order of how the dogs finished in the hunt off.
I'd love to see UKC apply that theory to the coonhound Nite champions.

If an event draws, anything more than 1 Nite Ch cast, the Top 4 high scoring Nite Champion Cast winners should be required to have a 1 hour hunt off to earn that Nite Ch win. Should there only be 1 Nite Ch cast, that cast winner would take the win by default.

IMO the difference between Nite Ch cast winners usually isn't about dog power as much as it is about guiding and circle points. Nothing more disappointing than missing out on the Nite Ch win after looking at the winner's scorecard and seeing a bunch of circle points that probably should have been minused but weren't because the majority of the cast felt it was more important to run up a score to get the win than scoring the dogs as they should have been.

Just a thought.

Under the current format, I'll do my best to finish dogs to UKC Nite Ch and earn wins and titles in other registries. Doesn't mean I won't hunt them in Nite Ch casts because I do enjoy that, but I'll never waste my time and money making the push to Grand Nite when I could hunt another registry and at least get something in return for a cast win.

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