UKC Forums - why breed junk

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Posted by scottphillips76 on 02-23-2010 01:22 PM:

why breed junk

I feel led to post this due to the fact people are breeding trash.
Why in the world would a person claim to be straight up and take a trashy grade dog and let it get hung up on another piece garbage. COME ON PEOPLE TURNING PUPS TO GET MONEY IS KILLING THE COONHOUND BREED ,GET A DANG JOB STOP SCREWING HARD WORKING GOOD OLE BOYS AROUND.
NO WONDER PEOPLE DONT WANT TO BUY PUPS OR COON HUNT ANYMORE BREEDING TRASH HAS ALMOST RUINED IT FOR ME AND IM HARD CORE HUNT EVERY WEEK AT LEAST 3 NITES!!!!

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Posted by ki4qpu on 02-23-2010 01:49 PM:

sad but true......

The almighty dollar takes presidence over morals and integrity of the sport. Breeders are more worried about selling and making money than they are about building character. And to me good character can sell dogs quicker than papers. There is a lot of junky dogs out there with good papers that keep getting bred because it makes someone's wallet fatter.

Breeding has nothing to do with the end result anymore. And everything to do with how many grands are on the papers, and how much the next litter is worth. jmo - worth what it cost you

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Posted by Christy on 02-23-2010 01:55 PM:

NOT ALL BREEDERS ARE LIKE THIS GUYS. YA'LL JUST HAVEN'T HOOKED UP WITH THE RIGHT ONE YET!

THE END RESULT IS FAR MORE VALUABLE THAN WHAT IT TOOK TO GET THERE.

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Posted by Bluedogman on 02-23-2010 02:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Christy
NOT ALL BREEDERS ARE LIKE THIS GUYS. YA'LL JUST HAVEN'T HOOKED UP WITH THE RIGHT ONE YET!

THE END RESULT IS FAR MORE VALUABLE THAN WHAT IT TOOK TO GET THERE.

You got that right...but you got to have something to put on sale -- don't ya?

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Posted by ki4qpu on 02-23-2010 02:31 PM:

No offense christy...

But your exactly what i'm talking about. Your very quick on the draw when someone asks on here who to breed to. I'm sure sid is a good dog, but allowing anyone to come breed is asinine. It's as much or more the stud owners responsibility to know what your breeding to. For example click on sids name in your signature. First thing you see..... $300.00. Not proven females only. And i'm not talking about championed females I mean real tree dogs.

Coonhounds across the board are going backwards, more so in the walkers and I was a walker man. It's up to the breeders to turn this around.

I'm not trying to pick on you, or to piss you off. But it's the truth, maybe you screen the females behind the scenes. I don't know? I speak merly from observation. But if something doesn't change a good dog is going to be real hard to find. I'm not trying to attack you in any way. But i am trying to be honest and sincere.

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Posted by patches9452 on 02-23-2010 02:38 PM:

trash

300$ bucks they can breed to my trash...it's nobodys business but mine and theirs...one mans garbage is another mans treasure

Posted by HOBO on 02-23-2010 02:41 PM:

Just how many stud dog owners do you know that turn away a female? If you show up with the dog in heat and ready to breed they breed the dog and take your money.

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Posted by coldtrail on 02-23-2010 02:41 PM:

A better question is Why buy junk????????????

If what you say is true then if everyone would quit buying it then people wouldnt breed it.

I just find it hard to believe people are breeding junk and making money, I dont think very many good breeders make money.

As far as asking on this board what to breed to, if you have to get on a message board and ask then you dont need to be breeding the dog. JMO

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Posted by patches9452 on 02-23-2010 02:55 PM:

junk

if you could breed coon dogs everybody that wanted one would have one...you have to make them...you breed to hopefully make the job easier...but i have hunted just as many good ones out of nothing as i have top dogs... they are just not nearly as easy to sale

Posted by Brian France on 02-23-2010 03:28 PM:

I have been saying this for years and wondering why? I think when money is involved in anything then common sense takes a back seat. I have noticed that most people only look at papers and breed by how many titles are in the pedigree. I guess I am no different, titles do catch your eye. But I also have witnessed guys breeding total junk to a big titled dog hoping to get a world beater, and I feel there is also way to much emphasis put on the stud and none on the female. I by no means have this breeding game down to an art but I believe if you breed 2 coondogs then the result is more apt to be a coondog. If we were all more honest with ourselves about or dogs ability there would be alot less pups for sale and a lot less training problems! There is a lot of real good dogs out there in every breed we just have to find the right combination to better the breed instead of thickening the wallet!! I strive to breed right no matter how many miles are involved or how much culling needs to be done, like I said, I don't have it down to an art, but working at it! Coon dogs are kinda like employment, a hard worker is noticed and appreciated by his employer, a lazy bum is noticed by everyone and appreciated by none! If I ever find a shortcut I will be more than happy to let the cat out of the bag, until then I guess I'll just keep trying.

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Posted by John D on 02-23-2010 03:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by coldtrail
As far as asking on this board what to breed to, if you have to get on a message board and ask then you dont need to be breeding the dog. JMO

Amen.

Do your homework, pay your dues, and then you will know what to breed to.

Its a free country and everyone has a right to screw up in new and inventive ways if they want. I am amused by how some people operate, though. They justify breeding some dogs because they are breeding for themselves. Nothing wrong with that. Or maybe they had an accidental cross and are too irresponsible to know how to take care of unplanned pups. but then they try to make their mistake become your mistake. They want to know who else might want a pup. If anyone wants one they are $100 or $150. If nobody wants them, then they are "free to youth". Then, when they can't find any more youth to take advantage of, they are giving them away to anyone that will just take them so they don't have to feed them.

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Posted by ki4qpu on 02-23-2010 03:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by HOBO
Just how many stud dog owners do you know that turn away a female? If you show up with the dog in heat and ready to breed they breed the dog and take your money.

That's the problem nobody cares what the end result will be. That in turn reflects back on you.

You use to be able to take any coonhound pup, and it be atleast a natural enough to put a coon up a tree. Or take it with an older dog a couple of times and pick it up pretty quick. It may not be exactly what you want but would be good enough you could go hunting.

Now, that's just to much to ask. The last three pups i've bought ranging from 175.00 to 500.00 wouldn't tree a biscuit. And it's not just me look at some of these posts. I fault bad breeders. Irreguardless which sex you own or both take some responsibilty. I hate to quote this but: " the proof is in the pudding" and the pudding tastes like sh$t !

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Posted by josh on 02-23-2010 03:57 PM:

I can justify breeding any 2 dogs on earth.

Its everyone else that is breeding junk.

Posted by Oak Ridge on 02-23-2010 03:58 PM:

I've found that everyone's measuring stick is a different length. As some have said, one man's junk is another man's treasure, and until we come up with a unified way of measuring the true breeding value of a dog...folks are going to continue to make breeding decisions based upon all different criteria.

"Coon Dawg" means something different to just about every one of us. We base our opinion on our personal expriences and beliefs, and the only measure of success we have is hunt winners. I suppose that you could lump in "historical reproducers" in that category, but if you want to pick at that...it has it's flaws too.

I know we have a "super sire" complex. Well, how many people have hunted with Track Man...Rat Attack, Big D...the list is long but distinguished. Every year UKC produces a World Hunt winner, and the value of that title is not the trophy and the WCH title...but in the breeding pen. If the reigning world hunt winner is a male....females flock to the breeding pen, if it's a female....pups sell for upwards of $1,000.00

Few of us actually have any animal husbandry experience. It can't be learned from a book, but instead must be learned by the school of hard knocks. Trial and error are the best teachers. Unfortunatly, anyone with a receptive female is tagged as a "breeder" by the kennel clubs. Good business on their part, but many very poor breeding decisions are made. Every once in a while, someone stumbles on the right choice, and it keeps the hopes up of everyone.

My advice to the poster of this question: Why worry about what others are doing. If you have done your homework...hunted with the sire and dam of a litter that you might be interested in, and you like what you see....then the work begins.

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Posted by on 02-23-2010 04:05 PM:

when people have a litter of 8 pups for sale, advertised at $400 and claim they are not making a dime, I cant help but chuckle...

Stud fee $400 (if using outside stud)
puppy shots, 2 per pup, $128 (some only give 1 shot)
puppy food $100 (2 50# bags max @ $25)
registration in all registries $150 ?

$778 spent on litter max.
$3200 minus $728 = $2472 profit

if their own stud is used and only 1 set of shots
$264 spent = $2936 profit

Posted by ki4qpu on 02-23-2010 04:46 PM:

or this..

Almost nobody makes money breeding pups...... That's the crock!
7in1 shots avg. $8.00, wormer for the entire litter for the entire time $15.00, dog food for the last couple of weeks $20.00 If you have a litter of lets say 8 pups @ $350.00 to $500.00 How is that not about money? If it not about money why so much? All of the medicine and food come to $100.00. 8 pups @ just $350.00 - the above mentioned is $2700.00 HMMMMM?

because the breeder WANTED TO........ Wanted to what? Make money! And if it is not, and they are just breeding to try this or that, than that is the reason we have so many POS dogs trying be sold to get some of their money back on a $350.00 to $500.00 pup.

This was taken off another post that I did... close to yours blue style

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Posted by Ringtailfever89 on 02-23-2010 05:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by HOBO
Just how many stud dog owners do you know that turn away a female? If you show up with the dog in heat and ready to breed they breed the dog and take your money.

you asked how many has been turned away we here have turned away quite i few before we breed dogs here we must first go to the woods if she will run tree a coon then we look at papers most people just breed on papers nothing else we here breed on genetics and we breed coon dog to coon dog we look at both things me and my whole family hunt the pups from what we breed we dont breed to get rich we breed what we want to hunt which is the way it should be we hunt the yadkin river walkers

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Posted by Christy on 02-23-2010 05:04 PM:

Re: or this..

quote:
Originally posted by ki4qpu
Almost nobody makes money breeding pups...... That's the crock!
7in1 shots avg. $8.00, wormer for the entire litter for the entire time $15.00, dog food for the last couple of weeks $20.00 If you have a litter of lets say 8 pups @ $350.00 to $500.00 How is that not about money? If it not about money why so much? All of the medicine and food come to $100.00. 8 pups @ just $350.00 - the above mentioned is $2700.00 HMMMMM?

because the breeder WANTED TO........ Wanted to what? Make money! And if it is not, and they are just breeding to try this or that, than that is the reason we have so many POS dogs trying be sold to get some of their money back on a $350.00 to $500.00 pup.

This was taken off another post that I did... close to yours blue style

I�M NOT TRYING TO PISS YOU OFF OR PICK ON YOU OR ANYTHING, BUT I DID A LITTLE OBSERVING OF MY OWN.

HERE IS WHAT YOU SAID AT FIRST:

quote:
Originally posted by ki4qpu
The almighty dollar takes presidence over morals and integrity of the sport. Breeders are more worried about selling and making money than they are about building character. And to me good character can sell dogs quicker than papers. There is a lot of junky dogs out there with good papers that keep getting bred because it makes someone's wallet fatter.

Breeding has nothing to do with the end result anymore. And everything to do with how many grands are on the papers, and how much the next litter is worth. jmo - worth what it cost you

THEN I FOUND THIS:

quote:
Originally posted by ki4qpu
I have 3- males kemmer pups be ready to go this weekend. They have had 1st shots and been wormed. Good hunting dogs. No papers (AS IN GRADE DOGS?) I will take 100.00 each. Prefer you call 865-388-4176 leave a message or you can pm me. I'm located 15 miles south of Knoxville Tn.

Pics are coming this afternoon! Maybe still having trouble up loading them.http://www.foothillshuntingdogs.com...showtopic=11169

THEN YOU SAID THIS:

quote:
Originally posted by ki4qpu
But your exactly what i'm talking about. Your very quick on the draw when someone asks on here who to breed to. I'm sure sid is a good dog, but allowing anyone to come breed is asinine. It's as much or more the stud owners responsibility to know what your breeding to. For example click on sids name in your signature. First thing you see..... $300.00. Not proven females only. And i'm not talking about championed females I mean real tree dogs.

Coonhounds across the board are going backwards, more so in the walkers and I was a walker man. It's up to the breeders to turn this around.

I'm not trying to pick on you, or to piss you off. But it's the truth, maybe you screen the females behind the scenes. I don't know? I speak merly from observation. But if something doesn't change a good dog is going to be real hard to find. I'm not trying to attack you in any way. But i am trying to be honest and sincere.

AND THEN I FOUND THIS:

quote:
Originally posted by ki4qpu
The sire is a good pup trainer for coon ,of a buddy of mines. The dame is a great squirrel dog haven't tried on coon yet.(YOU MEAN NOT PROVEN ON COONS?) Great expectations out of this litter. They are not registered, but I can tell you they have hunting blood. They both have rear dews if that makes a difference.

HERE IS WHAT YOU SAID AGAIN:

quote:
Originally posted by ki4qpu
The almighty dollar takes presidence over morals and integrity of the sport. Breeders are more worried about selling and making money than they are about building character. And to me good character can sell dogs quicker than papers. There is a lot of junky dogs out there with good papers that keep getting bred because it makes someone's wallet fatter.

THEN I FOUND THIS:

quote:
Originally posted by ki4qpu
1 pup left- he is the first picture, he is 7 weeks now first 100.00 gets him

AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST I FOUND THIS:

quote:
Originally posted by ki4qpu
That's the problem nobody cares what the end result will be. That in turn reflects back on you.

You use to be able to take any coonhound pup, and it be atleast a natural enough to put a coon up a tree. Or take it with an older dog a couple of times and pick it up pretty quick. It may not be exactly what you want but would be good enough you could go hunting.

Now, that's just to much to ask. The last three pups i've bought ranging from 175.00 to 500.00 wouldn't tree a biscuit. And it's not just me look at some of these posts. I fault bad breeders. Irreguardless which sex you own or both take some responsibilty. I hate to quote this but: " the proof is in the pudding" and the pudding tastes like sh$t !

YOU SAY BAD BREEDERS ARE AT FAULT HUH. HAVE YOU EVER STOPPED TO THINK THAT IT MIGHT NOT BE THE BREEDER, BUT IN FACT THE TRAINER?

DO YOU SCREEN THE BUYERS OF YOUR PUPPIES WHEN YOU SELL THEM LIKE YOU SUGGEST WE DO WITH FEMALES TO BE BRED? OH SHOOT, IT SAYS IT RIGHT THERE IN BLACK AND WHITE FIRST ONE WITH $100.00 GETS HIM.

SO, IF IT IS ALWAYS THE BREEDERS FAULT, AND THEIR SOLE RESPONSIBILITY, IF NONE OF YOUR PUPS TURN OUT ARE YOU GOING TO BLAME THE TRAINER, OR ARE YOU GOING TO BLAME YOURSELF AS THE BREEDER?

THINK ABOUT YOUR ANSWERS VERY CAREFULLY.

Posted by Ringtailfever89 on 02-23-2010 05:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by HOBO
Just how many stud dog owners do you know that turn away a female? If you show up with the dog in heat and ready to breed they breed the dog and take your money.

Posted by patches9452 on 02-23-2010 05:13 PM:

making money

i had a accidental litter off of a nice 13 month old male and my nt ch female...bred in the woods...i raised them until all were treeing paid their perf. up and give all of them away but one...the one i kept...of the ones i have given away not one can i get a price put on if i could i would buy them back but long story short who made the money...i know this isn't always the case but i have also bought pups with a top set of papers and couldn't give them away at a year old...

Posted by HOBO on 02-23-2010 05:24 PM:

I don't see that many pups other than the ones I breed. If a person keeps buy JUNK where's it coming from?

I would think most pups today should make a decent dog if given the chance. In my opinion its not the breeders breeding JUNK as much as it is the buyers not giving the pups the chance they deserve and then cry it was JUNK to start with.

Posted by Larry Atherton on 02-23-2010 05:31 PM:

Malcontent individuals are never at fault ... just the rest of the world.

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Posted by BAWL_TRACK on 02-23-2010 05:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Ringtailfever89
before we breed dogs here we must first go to the woods if she will run tree a coon then we look at papers

But your breeding coon dog to coon dog,,,, they why worry bout the papers if she's half rebone they why worry bout looking at the papers if she's coondog...... But i myself are going to breed my female but im not running thousand miles to breed to whatever ,,,,, Im looking for a dog that can produce a % of his pups off different females are doing good...an look to see if nice enough i'd like to have a pup from.... not to just breed an sell the pups i breed to sadisfy myself not others an i think thats the biggest problem with people they breed to what others want pups out of an when that started the hunting dogs with down hole

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Posted by ki4qpu on 02-23-2010 05:45 PM:

I still blame the breeder if the pups don't turn out. And again I say..

You use to be able to take any coonhound pup, and it be atleast a natural enough to put a coon up a tree.

Now, that's just to much to ask. The last three pups i've bought ranging from 175.00 to 500.00 wouldn't tree a biscuit.

No papers (AS IN GRADE DOGS?) Yes no papers, I don't need papers and a full page add to prove I have good dogs. It's proven in the woods and on the tree.

The sire is a good pup trainer for coon ,of a buddy of mines. The dame is a great squirrel dog haven't tried on coon yet.(YOU MEAN NOT PROVEN ON COONS?) Great expectations out of this litter. They are not registered, but I can tell you they have hunting blood. They both have rear dews if that makes a difference....

I guess your not use to a dog being able to hunt multiple animals accurately day and night like a mtn cur. Curs are bred to be able to hunt coon at night and squirrel the next morning.

And lastly the 100.00 dollar pup and add...... I had a litter of 8 pups- out of them 4 made it.... one i'm keeping, one was given to the stud owner, third was sold locally to a hunter, and the last is still up for sale for 100.00 dollars..... so if i spent 8.00 x8 for 7in1 shots. 8 because it's been given twice thats 64.00 + 15.00 for wormer = 79 and then puppy food which is roughly 20.00 ... stay with me now that's a grand total of 99.00 dollars not counting other items like cedar shavings etc. if I sell the other pup I am walking away with a grand total of 100.00 dollars and a lot of time invested. Boy I made a killing!

I making one third off this litter than you are off each pop of sid. And I know both dogs very well. This wasn't about sid, it's about knowing what your breeding too before jimmy joe starts selling pups out your stock. I guess the truth stings sometimes.

Maybe you thought you made a point, but it's still a money game and it's up to the breeder to make the dog. A real dog should need little help to make atleast an average dog.

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Posted by Keith Hodge on 02-23-2010 05:45 PM:

Christy that is funny.If you guys dont want the risk of buying bad pups just by started dogs that you can try first.Even the best bred litters are not going to get 100% turnout.

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