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Rules question

In a 3 dog cast dog A & B get treed together on the side of a 10 feet wide creek. The tree they're on leans into a tree across the creek where a coon is sitting. The points are plussed up and we gather the dogs and go to dog C's tree and score accordingly. We turn the dogs loose and they all tree together. We score this tree accordingly. We then turn the dogs loose again and dog A gets treed and she's the only one there so we start moving towards her so we can be there promptly after the five minutes are up. We stop about 30 yards from the tree with about 3:30 gone on the tree. When we stop dogs B & C come in and tree to the left of dog A about 5 to ten yards. We hear dog A shut up, swim across the water and start treeing with the other two. Dog A is quickly minused and all the handlers tree their dogs. We walk into the tree and it was the same tree that we had scored earlier but instead of the leaning tree they were actually on the tree with the coon in it. Now I know that this coon cannot be scored again, but knowing that, the minus points that were given to dog A should be deleted also because it was all the same canopy. If I am wrong please let me know. And if you could please tell me the rule that covers this.

ttt

Dog A's minus points stand as they are because you cant be 100% sure she was on the same tree to start with. Common sense tells you she probably was but "probably" isnt good enough. You didnt make it to her to find out. Her strike would be deleted tho. Rule 4C. The word canopy sends a chill up my spine every time I hear it. Its more of a way to be too leniant on a dog thats not doing what it should be. If a handler trees a dog it better stay. PERIOD! Also read Rule 5e. It states: NO points not even circle points will be awarded when dogs return to tree that has previously been scored, cast may go to tree without dogs being declared treed, if majority of cast agree, when hunting judges are used.

The dog was treed and she moved, pretty simple.

It was proven that she come from the original tree. And I don't see how anyone can say that that's simple. The dog moved 10-15 feet. And, according to the way it's been told to me for years, she was under the canopy.

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Originally posted by longshot
Thats a dicy situation , but if it was scored as one tree to begin with , I think the points would be deleted for going to a previously scored tree.

The bottom line is , did the judge declare it to be scored as ONE tree ? I don't see how you can minus a dog on a tree that has already been scored and plussed ?

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Re: Rules question

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Originally posted by chuckydw
dog A gets treed and she's the only one there so we start moving towards her so we can be there promptly after the five minutes are up. We stop about 30 yards from the tree with about 3:30 gone on the tree.

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We were standing 30 yards from them with nothing between us and the dogs.

so there were only 2 trees in the area, the one with the coon, and the one leaning into it?

Gfults is right.. There is NO canopy rule... It is a judges decision if a dog moved or not and if the cast don't agree , you vote...

That being said , if it was scored as one tree already , I dont see how you can minus a dog for going to a previously scored tree?

Either it is ONE tree or it is NOT one tree... It would be something the cast would likely vote on and that would be the end of it. If the cast agree's that it is one tree , you cannot minus a dog for going to a previously scored tree.

__________________
Mark Reavis
Southwest Missouri
Dual Grand Champion Super Sambo

Re: Rules question

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Originally posted by chuckydw
In a 3 dog cast dog A & B get treed together on the side of a 10 feet wide creek. The tree they're on leans into a tree across the creek where a coon is sitting. The points are plussed up and we gather the dogs and go to dog C's tree and score accordingly. We turn the dogs loose and they all tree together. We score this tree accordingly. We then turn the dogs loose again and dog A gets treed and she's the only one there so we start moving towards her so we can be there promptly after the five minutes are up. We stop about 30 yards from the tree with about 3:30 gone on the tree. When we stop dogs B & C come in and tree to the left of dog A about 5 to ten yards. We hear dog A shut up, swim across the water and start treeing with the other two. Dog A is quickly minused and all the handlers tree their dogs. We walk into the tree and it was the same tree that we had scored earlier but instead of the leaning tree they were actually on the tree with the coon in it. Now I know that this coon cannot be scored again, but knowing that, the minus points that were given to dog A should be deleted also because it was all the same canopy. If I am wrong please let me know. And if you could please tell me the rule that covers this.

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hey, Im not tryin to argue, tryin to learn...would it be the judges decision on whether she was on a previously scored tree, or determined by a vote?

We were standing 30 yards from the tree and they were in the bend of the creek. When we were standing there we didn't know they were on the same tree. The dog shuts up and moves to them across the creek. I probably made a mistake, but being that I'm an honest man I said "minus Angel, she moved to the left". It was written down that way and she was retreed. My only problem with all this is that if you treated it as a canopy the first time you scored the tree why does it change the second time around. Basically I was minused for being honest and saying what I thought at the time was the right thing to do. That will not happen again if this kinda stuff is gonna happen to me. I don't wanna come off as rude, but if honesty is gonna hurt me I guess I'll have to not be so honest.

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Originally posted by Blue Style
hey, Im not tryin to argue, tryin to learn...would it be the judges decision on whether she was on a previously scored tree, or determined by a vote?

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__________________
Mark Reavis
Southwest Missouri
Dual Grand Champion Super Sambo

Fellas I appreciate all the input. I'm just trying to make sure this never happens agian to myself or anybody else I know. There's nothing I can do about it now.

quote:

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Originally posted by chuckydw
We were standing 30 yards from the tree and they were in the bend of the creek. When we were standing there we didn't know they were on the same tree. The dog shuts up and moves to them across the creek. I probably made a mistake, but being that I'm an honest man I said "minus Angel, she moved to the left". It was written down that way and she was retreed. My only problem with all this is that if you treated it as a canopy the first time you scored the tree why does it change the second time around. Basically I was minused for being honest and saying what I thought at the time was the right thing to do. That will not happen again if this kinda stuff is gonna happen to me. I don't wanna come off as rude, but if honesty is gonna hurt me I guess I'll have to not be so honest.

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Here is the way I see it...

When originally scoring tree, you said the tree the dogs were treed on was a leaner that went into another tree that held the raccoon. Essentially scoring it as one. No problem with that.

Then when the dog re-treed, you stood 30 yards from the tree waiting for the 5 to expire. I'll come back to this.

Then 2 other dogs load up on another tree 5-10 yards away and you hear the dog move, swim across the water and begin treeing with the other dogs. Dog was minused for moving as it should be.

Then arriving at the tree you determined it was the same tree already scored.

If it was as "obvious" as you claim. Then why were you standing 30 yards away waiting for the 5 to expire? On previously scored trees you can simply go in and handle the dog.

Seems to me there was some uncertainty or you wouldn't have been waiting the 5. Therefore there is some doubt whether it was the same tree to begin with. That wasn't cleared up until the cast went in to handle dogs.

The minus points should stand.

That "under the same canopy" argument after the fact won't get you very far.

Its just one of them bad breaks.

I see it the same as brogy, bad break.

Let me re-gress somewhat on this.... If the judge was NOT convinced that it was the same tree while running the 5 ,,, then a strong agruement could be made that they didn't know which tree she was on. I'm baseing this on his later statement that he told them to minus his dog. If you thought it was the same tree , never tell them to minus your dog. Doing so is owning the minus points

After you minus a dog in that situation , you can't go back and un-minus it.

It all boils down too what the cast decides and you always call for a vote if you don't agree..

It sounds like a very unfortunate situation.

PS... Stay with the honesly , you'll sleep better at night..

__________________
Mark Reavis
Southwest Missouri
Dual Grand Champion Super Sambo

As a judge I always appreciate an honest handler willing to suggest its dog deserved minus points. This is just one of those deals where it came back to bite you in the back side.

Its happened to me and it will probably happen again.

You answered it yourself, it wasn't obvious when you declared her treed. If it was, you probably would have let the judge apply the stationary rule and hoped she'd move on. You didn't, she didn't. You treed her for 125 believing and hoping she was on another tree. Then when she moved, you suggested she take minus (as she should) then when realizing it was a previously scored tree after walking into it, you wanted a "do over".

Just a bad break. Don't let it bother you.

I'm with longshot on this one if it was scored one tree the first time then it would still be one tree the next time. Although once you say minus my dog it's hard to get a cast to take those minus points back. I have also done that on a hole abd could not get my minus back. Always be sure before you minus but I think your honesty is great, keep it up.

Brogy you are absolutely right in one aspect. It was scored as one tree the first time around. But the reason that we were standing 30 yards from the tree had nothing to do with any uncertainty about it being the same tree. The reason was because you are supposed to make every effort to be at the tree as soon as the five minutes is up. We walked to within 30 yards of the tree and had no idea that they were on the same tree.

I spectated on a cast once and 3 dogs were struck in a field. One dog come treed all alone on the edge of the field. 5 was up, other 2 were still running. Cast went in to score the tree which was just inside the tree line. Judge and handler went into the tree and the rest of the cast waiting outside because it was easier to shine from there anyway. Handler leashes dog and looks up, says "Judge... I'm done.. he's got a possum." Judge looks up and sure enough, there sits Mr Smiley.
Handler is upset with his dog. He was leading the cast. Cast is waiting in the same spot as other 2 were still running. Handler heads back to the truck to stick scratched dog in the box. Walking back to the cast, he says "You gotta be kidding me". Cast turns around and looks up and in the same tree sits a coon way to the top. Possum was down low. No one ever searched the whole tree because the possum was obvious as the handler went in to handle.
No way can you allow the handler to go back, get the dog out of the truck and recast. There are no do-overs.
That is a tough break.

The facts are that the dog was treed and moved left handed. If you had been 200 yards away, what would you have done? If my dog is treed it better not move, whether its back on the same tree or not. If you "know" she was on the same tree as youve said, then you shouldnt have treed her. The fact is she was called treed and didnt hold the pressure and moved. Minus her and go on. People spend way too much time making excuses for dogs when they should be admitting a dogs faults and working on them.

quote:

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Originally posted by chuckydw
Brogy you are absolutely right in one aspect. It was scored as one tree the first time around. But the reason that we were standing 30 yards from the tree had nothing to do with any uncertainty about it being the same tree. The reason was because you are supposed to make every effort to be at the tree as soon as the five minutes is up. We walked to within 30 yards of the tree and had no idea that they were on the same tree.

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