UKC Forums - Total Dog

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Posted by Don Wells on 02-15-2010 01:17 PM:

Total Dog

Any word on Total Dog yet?

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Posted by Scott Fluhart on 02-15-2010 02:43 PM:

Speaking of the total dog........... I think UKC needs to do some tweeking to the total dog program, I feel that a GRHBCH should not have to run the day of the show to get Total dog points, Just last week at our club hunt Dan Mazalics dog won best of breed but because of bad weather and a low turnout there were no other GRHBCHs to hunt against, The dog has obviously proved that he IS a rabbit dog by making grand so why should he have to pay the entry fee and run by himself just to gain a few total dog points. I totally agree that dogs need to run to be considered a "TOTAL DOG" but once they earn a GRHBCH title they should not be forced to run, they've already proved themselves in my oppinion, curious to hear other thoughts on this.

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Posted by Jed Nichols on 02-15-2010 03:45 PM:

DON

Final Standings?

Posted by Don Wells on 02-15-2010 04:48 PM:

Re: DON

quote:
Originally posted by Jed Nichols
Final Standings?

The web page for Total Dog Standings was tabulated December 23, 2009. Looking for top ten total for 2009. Not trying to be smart but not sure what you ment ???

Posted by Jed Nichols on 02-15-2010 06:02 PM:

Don

It should be updated today or tomorrow on the website.

Posted by Don Wells on 02-15-2010 06:41 PM:

Thanks

Posted by hilljack10 on 02-15-2010 07:25 PM:

I thought if a dog wasn't hunted that day then it wasn't allowed to show for best of breed.That takes away from other dogs that did hunt that day.I think they should have to hunt that day.Don't need to fix what ain't broken.JMO

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Posted by TOUCHSTONEBEAGL on 02-15-2010 10:01 PM:

The rules for total dog for the year 2009 are as written. The rules for last year can not change. The dog must run to earn total dog points. No rule to say they must run to earn a Ch win or Best Of Breed. I know some clubs do eliminate dogs that did not run that day from best of breed competition. That is not according to the rules as they are written.

UKC is one of the few registries that promotes a Total Dog. In my opinion a total dog is one that has proven both excellent hunt characteristics and excellent physical make-up in accordance with the breed standard.

I feel there is room for concern when half of the dogs on the total dog list have not earned a hunt title.

By the end of the callendar year every dog permitted on the Total Dog list should have at least a CH in both hunt and show.

Why eliminate a hunt CH or Grand from the total dog competition and open the door for a dog to earn top 10 points that may never earn a hunt title. Makeing it through a 1- 2 hr cast without getting scratched is not enough to be considered a total dog in my opinion.

If you have a registered dog in the winners pack you can not run the CH or Grand. If you get to a hunt and there are no other grands or if the other grands pull their entry then nothing can be gained towards state race points. Why go run solo? Great rabbit dogs are eliminated from earning total dog points even though they have proven excellence in hunt characteristics by the current policy.

Would be better to have a total dog program designed to showcase those dogs that have proven excellence in both hunt and show(physical characteristics). UKC has a venue(all-breed and multi-breed shows) for those who want to show a dog that is not strong in hunt characteristics.

Building a list of true total dogs would require a policy change by UKC. The change is simple and the benefit would be a TOTAL DOG list with even greater integrity.

Regardless of the rules or policies of any given registry it is up to breeders to develope the breed to its full potential in both hunt and physical characteristics.

Please do not respond to this negatively because this is not meant to degrade any particular dog(s). Congratulations to all who made the total dog list. You earned your place on the list fairly by the rules and policies of UKC. All the dogs on the list that I am familiar with are very nicely built hounds.

Posted by Jeremy Mapes on 02-15-2010 10:38 PM:

Well said Dan. I've always thought that the Total Dog Program should be geared more toward what it says it is, the total dog. The way it's set up now is better than before, but still needs improvement. Hopefully UKC will step in and make the adjustments needed now, while the year is still young.

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Posted by Kevin Watkins on 02-15-2010 10:57 PM:

well said Dan,I believe UKC is close,I would love to see some points for winning hunts and shows on the same day. I agree a dog must win best of breed,but mybe some bonus points for winning in the field as well...

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Posted by VICKY B on 02-15-2010 11:49 PM:

Totally agree with you Dan.

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Posted by Scott Fluhart on 02-16-2010 01:24 AM:

That is exactly what I "ment" to say Dan. LOL!!! I agree totally
Its definatly closer than its ever been but could still afford a few changes, I really think Dan has done his homework on this one.

Posted by jasonbrock on 02-19-2010 12:05 AM:

I THINK that the strictly show dog's should not have to hunt.and leave the total dog up to the hunting beagle's top hunting beagle in show against top show dog for overall show winner....I don't know what i'm talking about though..LOL..just my 2 cent's I guess

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Posted by Jamey Gorman on 02-19-2010 03:03 AM:

I agree Grand has already proved himself, I also think the same way about the World hunt, Grand should already be in...Just some of my crazy thoughts.....

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Posted by Scott Fluhart on 02-19-2010 01:40 PM:

Boy's now we are talkin CRAZY, Show beagles shouldn't have to hunt ??? Thats EXACTLY what we don't need , In coonhoumds they basically have two breeds, Coondogs and SHOW DOGS. This is called the TOTAL DOG for a reason. I like Kevins idea about extra points for winning in the hunt and show on the same day. To me THATS the TOTAL DOG. Just staying off the clock for 2 hrs doesnt mean sh-- to me. I have a pretty nice lil show dog , Her sire is 2 time World Show CH Whiteriver Leroy, Last year she won the Overall Show at NHBA days and also won Champions at the Nationals since that she has placed in hunting beagle and PP, and just picked up a first place win in HB. Needless to say she ain't a bad lil rabbit dog. But what I'm saying here is the TOTAL DOG program could use a little tweeking to make it better to actually get THE TOTAL DOG at the end of the year. I'm not cutting down any of the previous winners they obviously met the requirements. But like Dan said a GRHBCH should not be punished for not getting to hunt the day of the show,Just because no other grands show up. This needs changed. Would also like to see UKC consider extra points for dogs placing in the top 4. AND winning the show.......... Lets say you have 14 HBCHs and your dog wins its cast and gets 2 place in HBCH, hes basically beaten 12 other dogs then you go on a win best of breed against 8 dogs in the show, dog gets 7 total dog points, now give a half a point for each dog beaten in the feild 6 points, this would give you a total of 13 TOTAL DOG points for that day. Break the point system down like the incentive fund points 1st = 1 point per dog, 2nd = 1/2 point per dog, 3rd = 1/3 point per dog , 4th = 1/4 point per dog. I think a system like this would definately increase the show entries and would greatly increase the prestige of the TOTAL DOG WINNER. JMHO

Posted by VICKY B on 02-19-2010 01:59 PM:

JMO but if your dog minuses out, runs off game, or for any reason does not complete 2 hrs it should not be allowed to show unless it already has the 50 championship points. like I said JMO

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Posted by Fred Hwkins on 02-19-2010 03:02 PM:

Total Dog

This program was started for beagles with the hunting beagle concept coming first, as most of you know I believe there can be good conforming beagles that can run rabbits very well. The problem with this are that most beaglers place the majority of their emphasis on the hunt. I too want my dogs to hunt first before they are show dogs. I love to see good looking beagles with nice conformation. The Top Ten itself is just awarding the show portion of the Total Dog. I currently have a Top Notch conformation Tri-Color male who can run a rabbit with some of the best, he is not super fast thus he lacks getting first lines many times. He needs a 1st place in HH competition and may never get it, However, He has plenty of hunt points to show at events, but I feel I am taking points from someone else that has hunted their beagle the day of the event when I don't hunt him the day of the event. Dan, I do understand the situation if there are no dogs to compete in the field against that day.
If my dog was just a SHOW dog only, I would not feel this way, but we gun hunt with him as well. To me that's a total dog one you can gun over, field trial with and show if you want. Not everyone or every dog are show people or dogs. Also we don't all have the same ideas or opinions either.
Dan, your post was right on and Scott yes some tweeking needs to be made. JMO

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Posted by tjcrewse on 02-19-2010 04:56 PM:

like we always say
From Field to Show From Show to Field
The way it should be....
i Agree they should have to run the day of Show.
BUT I dont agree with Vicky

quote:
JMO but if your dog minuses out, runs off game, or for any reason does not complete 2 hrs it should not be allowed to show unless it already has the 50 championship points. like I said JMO

The Rules for Running should stand as they are!! there are enough problems with Rule manipulations on Casts With out having to Worry about the judge finding even more reasons to get rid of a Dog
So What you are saying Vicky Is if a person has a Cold nosed Dog and it Runs the cast But minuses out then it caint Show?
We have already just about bred the Nose and Control out of the hounds as it is How would this make it better?

What about that Dog that has been jumping the rabbit and keeping the races Going all day but just So happens that Minuses out at the End of the 2 hours or cast time. it Should be doubly punished by Not being allowed to Show?

If thats the Case your gonna have Some pretty EMPTY bench's at the hunts!!!!

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Posted by Jeremy Mapes on 02-19-2010 05:44 PM:

Just because a dog has a big nose that deosn't mean it's going to minus out. Now if they don't have enough brains to know when to open their mouth and when not to then they may minus out. I have seen plenty of honest mouthed hounds with big noses that can run in any condition.
I think Vicky may be on to something here. I kinda like the idea. If they can't get it done in the field, then they shouldn't be able to show, I think it's a great idea, especially considering that UKC is wanting to promote the "total dog". There are comformation shows for guys that don't have field dogs.

Posted by TOUCHSTONEBEAGL on 02-19-2010 05:55 PM:

TJ,

QUOTE:
[We have already just about bred the Nose and Control out of the hounds as it is How would this make it better?]

You and I are obviously running with different rabbit dogs. Don't agree we have bred the nose and control out. I do agree there are some hot nosed tight mouthed dogs that get by and even do well on some of the harder running days. It is rare for the running to be so difficult that a dog minuses out because of opening honest and not being able to move the track. Yes they should still be able to show. Don't see that part changing.

What we are talking about is when you travel to a hunt with a HBCH or Grand and then can not run the dog because of either running a dog in the reg. winners pack or no CH/GR competition shows up. What would be the advantage of denying a proven rabbit dog the opportunity of earning top 10 TOTAL DOG points.

QUOTE:
[If thats the Case your gonna have Some pretty EMPTY bench's at the hunts!!!! [/B][/QUOTE]
Allowing proven rabbit dogs to show and earn TOP 10 points will only increase the competition on the bench.

Posted by mitch gould on 02-19-2010 06:09 PM:

Thats right vicky!

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Posted by mitch gould on 02-19-2010 06:22 PM:

vicky, u and i hav always been in close agreement on this topic over the years I wish more people would breed for better search and jump ability in general in their bloodlines , total dog is a great concept , but there is a lot of lazy to medicore hunting abilty hounds out here THAT PPL BREED!. this is a problem.

And as i always say these dogs with so called "excellent confirmation" that you see win alot of big shows couldnt hang all day day after day running agaist longer "bred to run hounds" who have IMO the proper running gear to get it done where it counts...in the woods!

the breed standard penalizes hounds with more length which give you better lung expansion and a more fluid reach.

I wont name dogs ive seen over the years that have won big shows, but there are sveral that i know for a fact are culls in the field IMO. Too many boxed up soft built hounds have won big shows. Back in the laste 90's you could win big shows whith your hunting hounds, since many AKC show lines have made its way to our show rings, this has gone down immensley. You can have success with these lines when bred to hunting lines that has been proven obviously with the roots our kennel and many others,but that does not always happen.

My vote is a dog must have 75 championship points to be considered for total dog points, If u wanna show to show and get titles and not hunt your dog suit yourslef but you will not be rewarded under the total dog point system becasue u managed not to get scratched for two hours and NEVER win a cast!

The last point ill make is that i believe you should breed for what you like and if someone wants pretty dog that cant hunt well this is america, BUT and i say but lets not kid oursleves in thinking that these hounds are total dogs becasue they can manage a two hour cast without getting scratched!!

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Posted by CSG on 02-19-2010 06:30 PM:

PURDY IS IS WHAT PURDY DOES

SHOW EM ON THE GROUND EARNIN THERE FEED

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Posted by tjcrewse on 02-19-2010 06:31 PM:

quote:
Allowing proven rabbit dogs to show and earn TOP 10 points will only increase the competition on the bench.

On This I Agree But dont exclude those dogs that Have not yet reached their field degrees...

quote:

You and I are obviously running with different rabbit dogs. Don't agree we have bred the nose and control out. I do agree there are some hot nosed tight mouthed dogs that get by and even do well on some of the harder running days. It is rare for the running to be so difficult that a dog minuses out because of opening honest and not being able to move the track. Yes they should still be able to show. Don't see that part changing.

In MY Honest Opinion The HB format Tends to Promote the Rougher runnin get to the Front Fastest Dog Over those that are getting the work done Not Saying that The Dogs that are Winning are not good Rabbit Dogs But as we all Know it aint always the best Dog that Wins But that is Discussion For another day.
I Will just Stick to Performance pack

As far as us Running Different Styles of Dogs I think you Would be Surprised...

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Posted by TwoSocks on 02-19-2010 06:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by VICKY B
JMO but if your dog minuses out, runs off game, or for any reason does not complete 2 hrs it should not be allowed to show unless it already has the 50 championship points. like I said JMO

I also agree with this Vicky, except the part about unless it has 50 championship points. Bad dogs can get lucky and get those fifty points over a matter of time. In my opinion if a dog gets scratched, than it should NOT be allowed to show, reguardless of championship points. Because if it gets scratched than it was (if honesty and fair judgement was used) obviously not promoting what we are wanting in a hound. If we are trying to promote a great rabbit dog and better the breed, then we must start somewhere. Why promote a hound for doing the things that we do not want in a rabbit hound. For instance, If a dog runs a deer or minuses out etc, this is not what we want...so why would we want to promote this dog (until the problem is possibly fixed...if it is fixable). If a dog gets scratched in the field and then goes on to win the bench show am I going to consider a pup out of this dog or possibly use it for a stud....no.....there are plenty of great dogs that have excellent structure that can do it right in the field. Why continue to breed to these dogs if they cannot get it done CORRECTLY and HONESTLY in the field and then in the show which is what I believe UKC should be promoting. The current Total Dog system favors a very well built dog (usually show bred) that can complete a two hour cast. Wow.....last time I checked Total means the sum of....meaning field +show = total dog. Maybe in the show ring show + show = total dog, but not in a FIELD trial. The current Total Dog system is a slam to the dogs GETTING IT DONE IN BOTH THE HUNT AND SHOW. IF YOU WANT TO WIN THE CURRENT TOTAL DOG PROGRAM GO TO A CONFORMATION SHOW.

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