UKC Forums - Rules Question

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-- Rules Question (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=314367)

Posted by Robert Johnson on 11-25-2009 12:28 PM:

Rules Question

4 dog cast, under nite champion rules. all four dogs are struck, and 3 are declared treed. casts starts to tree, and one of the declared treed dogs leaves tree, and is minused tree points. Cast arrives at tree, and other two dogs have a possum. the one dog not declared treed comes into treed, comes into tree while it is being shined. Dog rears up on tree, but never barks and was handled. Judge circled her strike points. One handler questions the fact that she should be scratched for running off game during hunting time, regardless of the fact that she came into tree after the judge arrived. Make the call.

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Posted by Maniac on 11-25-2009 12:31 PM:

she came into tree after the judge arrived.you circle strike points.
other two dogs are scratch for treeing off game.

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Posted by treberta on 11-25-2009 12:34 PM:

Re: Rules Question

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Johnson
4 dog cast, under nite champion rules. all four dogs are struck, and 3 are declared treed. casts starts to tree, and one of the declared treed dogs leaves tree, and is minused tree points. Cast arrives at tree, and other two dogs have a possum. the one dog not declared treed comes into treed, comes into tree while it is being shined. Dog rears up on tree, but never barks and was handled. Judge circled her strike points. One handler questions the fact that she should be scratched for running off game during hunting time, regardless of the fact that she came into tree after the judge arrived. Make the call.

I really don't know how many times this needs to be discussed LOL

The dog IS NOT SCRATCHED. The handler can question it all he wants but it is a fight he is guaranteed to loose.

Posted by on 11-25-2009 01:23 PM:

Well the difference in this one is that the dog was scratched for RUNNING offgame, not treeing offgame so when he got there isn't relevant. But I'd like to know how that judge plans to make his case that the dog RAN the possum as opposed to just coming into the other dogs which, as the others have pointed out, is not a scratch.

Posted by Robert Johnson on 11-25-2009 01:26 PM:

i agree. this was just a small test of sorts. the above question was taken directly from the Advisor, page 167. You two gentlemen passed the test. The dog is not scratched, and strike points are circled.

Posted by on 11-25-2009 01:42 PM:

Well you screwed it up Robert because that question scratched them for treeing offgame, you said in your post above RUNNING offgame and as the Advisor points out on page 89, if the judge can make a case that the dog trailed into that tree on the possum track, you scratch that dog.

Posted by Justin Smith on 11-25-2009 02:14 PM:

Can you scratch the dog that left the possum since he tree it too ?

Posted by va.b&t on 11-25-2009 02:17 PM:

where is everybody reading the advisor?i would like to get a copy and every time i ask about it on here noone seems to no where to get one.i have not been comp hunting long,so if this is a stupid question please answer it for a beginer!!

Posted by Robert Johnson on 11-25-2009 02:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Well you screwed it up Robert because that question scratched them for treeing offgame, you said in your post above RUNNING offgame and as the Advisor points out on page 89, if the judge can make a case that the dog trailed into that tree on the possum track, you scratch that dog.

your problem Jim is that he can't make that case. No scratch..just as i said

Posted by on 11-25-2009 03:40 PM:

I'm not making the case either way. I'm simply pointing out that you are wrong if you say you can't scratch that dog that got there last. You CAN scratch that dog for offgame IF you can make the case that the dog trailed the possum into the tree. You can't scratch it for treeing offgame but you could possibly scratch it for running offgame.

Justin, you can't scratch the dog that left because you have no way of knowing for sure it left the possum tree. For all you know, it may have left a slick tree 10 feet over.

Posted by Casey_Lee on 11-25-2009 03:52 PM:

If I ever run for a public office I'm going to have JiM handle all my debates for me

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Posted by on 11-25-2009 03:56 PM:

If things get too quiet around here I will go out back and argue with a tree stump. And if I'm really desparate for a challenge I'll call Charlie Hyde.

Posted by Justin Smith on 11-25-2009 04:21 PM:

Jim, if the tree is closed and neither the handler or judge has said anything about a split .... I'd think scratching was in order... you know he was on the same tree because his handler said so when he thought it was a coon .

.. if you can point to the tree he was declared treed on .. and point to the tree he was minused for leaving .. I'd wanna point to the possum in that tree and scratch him for it .

Posted by Robert Johnson on 11-25-2009 05:08 PM:

i agree with you on most things Jim...but on this one you are wrong. The dog came in after shining was started. The UKC position is the pressure on the dog may have been to great for them not to come in with all the cast right there. NO SCRATCH CAN BE RULED AT ALL. you would loose, both on a cast i judged, and in the UKC court of rules. don't be sad, you are right 8 out of ten times...that is not bad...unless you are trying a death penalty case and you are one of the two that lost, with you being the defense...lol

Posted by on 11-25-2009 05:19 PM:

Well I hate to burst your buble Robert but I'm not wrong. Like I said, we all agree you can't scratch in that situation for TREEING offgame but the Advisor clearly states that can scratch for RUNNING offgame in that situation if you can make a case that the dog trailed the possum into that tree.

Justin, you can't scratch the first dog for the very same reason that you can't move up on tree points when the first dog treed leaves.

Posted by Robert Johnson on 11-25-2009 05:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Well I hate to burst your buble Robert but I'm not wrong. Like I said, we all agree you can't scratch in that situation for TREEING offgame but the Advisor clearly states that can scratch for RUNNING offgame in that situation if you can make a case that the dog trailed the possum into that tree.

Justin, you can't scratch the first dog for the very same reason that you can't move up on tree points when the first dog treed leaves.

no bubble here to burst...the whole thing was taken right out of the advisor and posted here. As stated, you are wrong....the advisor says it just as i did, for the above situation. I have know problem admitting when i have been mistaken. I am sure there is something related to a different situation about what you are referencing. with that , i agree. in the situation we are talking here, no way a case could be made that the dog trailed in to the 'Off" game tree. As stated, the dog came in after shine time was started, smelled up to the tree, stood on the tree, and never BARKED. Now i am not the lawyer you are, but i do have a little common sense in me. if that dog had trailed off game all the way to this tree, and mind you, no mention of it opening on this trail either, went to the tree, stood on the tree, it would have Barked on the tree, and finished its trail. NO THIS DOG SIMPLY CAME INTO A TREE THAT THE CAST WAS AT. No case to scratch can be made here, even in the wildest most liberal rule interputations could not make one under these circumstances.

Posted by on 11-25-2009 05:52 PM:

Robert, go back and read your own post, the first one on this thread. You stated "One handler questioned the fact that she should be scratched for running offgame...." Your question said scratched for RUNNING off game, not Treeing offgame. That is the question I answered and page 89 in the Advisor backs me up.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 11-25-2009 06:28 PM:

Re: Re: Rules Question

quote:
Originally posted by treberta
I really don't know how many times this needs to be discussed LOL The dog IS NOT SCRATCHED. The handler can question it all he wants but it is a fight he is guaranteed to loose.

What differance does it make how many times it has been discussed? There are new people on here all the time and this is the best learning tool I have seen for those of us that want to learn. Look at how many people read these posts. I think they should keep one going all the time. Just for dummies like me. Best read on the net.
By the way, if you don't like it on here I am thinking you sure won't like it in the woods.

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