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paper jockies

it sickens me how this is happening, hounds are being breed and sold based on there pedigree and half the hounds dont even hunt or at least not on thier own any way. For example pups for sale from brood female out of pr grntch so and so and pr so and so 200 for male 250 for female then you talk to the person and they say took her hunting and most say went with the older dogs and needs work on the tree but I don't have time to work with her cuz I have to many dogs. first off why did the hound get breed if she hasn't proven that she is a coon dog, second if you have to many dogs that you can't get one to "coonhound" status then why did you have her breed that just leads to more hounds you don't have time for cuz I'm sure there are more people like me and chances are you want to keep one or two so your gonna end up with some pups leftover. That leaves one reason, money for papered pups which means your not interested in the hound or having hounds that are good your interested in the green paper based off of the bloodline papers your using to gain profit from, and that means chances are your selling hounds that aren't going to turn out to people who will get discouraged in hound hunting or possibly even quit hunting because you wanted to make some paper money off of a piece of paper which means your slowly killing the sport of coon hunting. way to go hope you are proud. Just so there is no confusion I'm not cutting down papered hounds cuz it's nice to know what and where your hound is from, I'm only trying to help people and keep hound hunting from dying out. If you want a hound that has a better chance of working out for you make sure the parents are proven hunters and from a line of proven hunters papers or not, And watch out for people like I described above.

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Listen to your hounds they will tell you what you need to know!

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So, what is it your trying to say?

Re: .

quote:

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Originally posted by intellectualist
So, what is it your trying to say?

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Jim Hill 651-775-1783

Been following these walker dogs since 1983,and love every min of it !!!!





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I think as the economy tightens up and coon hides stay fairly low you will see less buyers for pups/young dogs....with less buyers they will get more selective about their purchases which hopefully will result in less of the "poor quality" breedings that this post mentions. (ie. If a man can't sell his last litter maybe he won't breed that sorry junk again)
But ultimately I think it is us the average buyer to eliminate these breedings, we have to be selective about our purchases and ignore the pups that are obviously not from quality coondog parents. If we do not buy junk the junk market will slow down...

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L. Chris Herring
Pine Cone Redbones
"And let us not be weary in well doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not." Gal. 6:9

Home of:
CH 'PR' Herring's Pine Cone Tally-Ho (TALLY)
and
In Memory of - CH 'PR' Herring's Pine Cone Chance; aka "The Phenomenon"

Honestly, I can't agree with anything in that post.
I don't think I have ever known anyone that bought a pup for the purpose of useing it to make money on coonhides so I seriously doubt the hide price will have any effect of pup prices. Neither will the economy. AO had record numbers and the PKC World Hunt was as strong as ever. Coonhunters basicly ignore economic conditions.
As for those paper crosses sam is concerned with, again, show some one out there breeding coonhound puppies for profit.
Why concern yourself with what someone else is breeding? If it is junk, fine, you just go somewhere else for your pup. If you get hosed on a "young started dog" that isn't the least bit started, who's fault is that?

If the Amish bought horses the way many of you buy coondogs, the roads around here would be clogged with brokedown horses and Amish hitchhikers.

My brother has recently decided to get his very first hound, he asked me if I could help pick one with him and I said I would help, the first hound was one of those he's about a year old he's papered but i'm waiting to get his papers back deals. I drove three hours and when I pull in the yard theres a hound sitting on a chain that was at least three years old out of shape and sad in confirmation. I told the guy thanks for lying and left. to make a long story short after several trips and disappointments my brother was discouraged and ready to give up, a friend of mine let me in on a pup out of his female that he gave away to a person a little ways south of us now he is like me in the fact that he only breeds hounds that hunt. I drove the hour to get the pup and the guy that had her said she was a little scared of a live trap coon so he didn't want her, now based on the pups out of my friends litter everyone but her was hunting so my brother grabbed her up, with papers of course that piece of paper cost $25.00 even though he obtained them free. with in one week this hound was running anything that left a scent and I mean anything just as gamey as it gets, now all he's got to do is straighten her out and she will with time be a nice hound. Now he's happy and wants to hunt and if he gets her straight you will probably see that dog in competition hunts around wisconsin. My point is why are people breeding hounds that haven't proven themselves coonhounds just because there papers say josmoes barnburner was a champ 10 generations ago. we all know genetics are a chance deal, some hounds throw there good genetics and some don't so it bothers me when you see these people taking advantage of others when there hound didn't turn out so they sell pups from the one that didn't because it was out of one that did years ago. now you have a litter of pups from a hound that possibly got the bad genetics and passed those on to the pups of the litter thats for sale and now people like my brother would buy a pup from that litter based on the paper jockey on the other end saying look at these papers all these dogs are champs and will forget to mention that his hound is a dud. all I'm saying is people like this should be thinned out and not allowed to have registered hounds due to the fact there ruining genetic lines, discouraging young hunters from hunting, or even causing them to give up hunting alltogether which is not helping coon hunting but slowly killing the sport of coonhunting.

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Listen to your hounds they will tell you what you need to know!

luck

the best dogs i have ever hunted were out of nothing but pr dogs....i hope that changes cause i have got what some call bred right to start later we will see how it works out

I AM WITH JIM ON THIS THREAD......IF COON HIDES WHERE NOT WORTH A DIME I DONT THINK IT WOULD MATTER TO MOST COONHUNTERS OUR HURT THE DOG MARKET........FOR WHAT THEY ARE WORTH NOW I DONT UNDERSTAND A REAL COONHUNTER KILLING 100 COON EVERY COON SEASON OR EVEN 30.....

jim/chuck

both your posts are real good. do,well there are as many poor trainers as there are good hounds ruined by them.
also the saying papers don't tree coon coondogs do is not right there are many great breeders that have improved there lines by keeping good records of the ansestors of there stock without this paperwork where would anyone start there line of breeding coondog to coondog produces as many bad dogs as good dogs a breeding program carefully put together based on past performances of a line is where i look for my next of dog..
you need to keep a tight genetic line to produce better than you have the previous generation.
ther have been a few super hounds produced by outcrossing and crossbreeding. however most of these dogs can't reproduce in there own likness as the gene pool is brought wide open causing a big variation in there produce. so yes papers are very important to bring a line to the top

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Re: paper jockies

quote:

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Originally posted by samskennel
it sickens me how this is happening, hounds are being breed and sold based on there pedigree and half the hounds dont even hunt or at least not on thier own any way. For example pups for sale from brood female out of pr grntch so and so and pr so and so 200 for male 250 for female then you talk to the person and they say took her hunting and most say went with the older dogs and needs work on the tree but I don't have time to work with her cuz I have to many dogs. first off why did the hound get breed if she hasn't proven that she is a coon dog, second if you have to many dogs that you can't get one to "coonhound" status then why did you have her breed that just leads to more hounds you don't have time for cuz I'm sure there are more people like me and chances are you want to keep one or two so your gonna end up with some pups leftover. That leaves one reason, money for papered pups which means your not interested in the hound or having hounds that are good your interested in the green paper based off of the bloodline papers your using to gain profit from, and that means chances are your selling hounds that aren't going to turn out to people who will get discouraged in hound hunting or possibly even quit hunting because you wanted to make some paper money off of a piece of paper which means your slowly killing the sport of coon hunting. way to go hope you are proud. Just so there is no confusion I'm not cutting down papered hounds cuz it's nice to know what and where your hound is from, I'm only trying to help people and keep hound hunting from dying out. If you want a hound that has a better chance of working out for you make sure the parents are proven hunters and from a line of proven hunters papers or not, And watch out for people like I described above.

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Why would a person with a good stud dog breed it to unproven bitches?

__________________
UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL
Grady Jarvis
808 N. Main St.
Tonkawa Okla. 74653
580-628-0507
CH 'PR' Grady's Dark Woods Waylon -Bluetic

NITECH 'PR' Grady's Insane Tinker Bell (Tink) - Treeing walker --Okla. State Hunt open redg. winner

'PR' Grady's Barley - Treeing Walker

Re: .

quote:

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Originally posted by intellectualist
So, what is it your trying to say?

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You got me to thinkin i buy pups with regal Gr Nite top and bottom and ten years latter they die in my pen as an unknown Pr kracker cause they have never entered a sho nuff hunt but if they survived the ten yers they must have suted me but what it is you're saying if a feller with a GrNite wanted to breed my kracker pr 4 a stud fee pup that would be bad is that what you mean?

I would ONLY be saying thatr if your Kracker is not worth a dam. I wouldn't consider a GRNITECH a stud dog just becouse it was a GRNITECH either though.
What I was talking about is a GOOD STUD DOG. A top reproducer and well known stud. Why would they breed it to a bitch that has been proven in the dark before breeding to it. There reputation as a reproducer is at stake. Proven in the dark (either you have went and seen what it will do it the woods OR it has the credits on paper to show it has won hunts). I know there are some out there with NTCH in front of it's name that will not hunt but I would think they would want to see them go OR AT LEAST have the NITECH in front of it's name.
Do they not consider how many pups a dog has put on the ground and take the percentage that gets titled to see how it is reproduceing? I don't know how they do that but if they just take the total number that makes it now matter how many it has put on the ground. Then I could see why they would breed to anything that showed up with a stud fee.

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UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL
Grady Jarvis
808 N. Main St.
Tonkawa Okla. 74653
580-628-0507
CH 'PR' Grady's Dark Woods Waylon -Bluetic

NITECH 'PR' Grady's Insane Tinker Bell (Tink) - Treeing walker --Okla. State Hunt open redg. winner

'PR' Grady's Barley - Treeing Walker

Re: Re: .

quote:

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Originally posted by l.lyle
Are you still hung up on that subject, verb and PERIOD thing?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Okie Dawg
Why would a person with a good stud dog breed it to unproven bitches?

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740-255-3087
william(wildbill)saylor
wildbills101@hotmail
wildbills101@yahoo
http://wildbills101.homestead.com/wildbills101.html

QUOTE] I said all that to say this...any prospect I have had has been out of local stock. I hunt with a guy that when asked to what his dog is out of will respond "a dog & a bitch" and then he will ask if you understand about the birds and bees [/QUOTE]

Billme, we might have a mutual friend. Does this guy live in Michigan???

Some folks selling dogs aren't breeders... They're trainers that for one reason or other get too many outside dogs in to train and have to sell a few of their own so they have time to do what pays them a little money on the side.

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
Honestly, If the Amish bought horses the way many of you buy coondogs, the roads around here would be clogged with brokedown horses and Amish hitchhikers.

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Shawn & Priscilla Hooks
Shallow Creek Redbones
phooks1973@aol.com

Home of Youth Handlers: TAYLOR & CHASE HOOKS

sam.........

why worry about the papers?????? papers won't tree a coon any better than a snuff can.........

I could care less if the papers are all grand or 'pr' papers, I'd want to see the parents in actions and would base my decision on them......

tell ur brother to look at the parents 1st and pick the ones he likes..... after he has made his choice, then look at the papers.

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ringtail dave

"TREE MY DOG" - NO BETTER FEELING

NAADP Charter Member....... appointed by King Dave himself........

I guess I fail to see the problem, I see pups advertised from $50 to $1000 out of anything from world champions to total idiots; in the coon hound world anyone with an open male and female is a potential breeder. Sad but true. You as the purchaser have all the tools at hand to select a pup from the bloodlines and titles you desire; if guy "X" wants to raise a litter of pups from his dogs, regardless of quality, you don't have to purchase one. Allow me to caution you, however, just because a pup is from a mating of titled hounds or local "coon treeers" does not guarantee that pup will turn into a coon dog. In fact over the past forty years I have seen world class hounds produced from matings of nearly total idiots, and the converse, total idiots from matings of world class hounds. For instance, I knew a man that hunted the Deep Fork bottoms three nights a week with a pair of hounds that never treed; they would catch a coon on the ground or a drift or beaver hole, but I never knew them to look up a tree. He raised a litter of pups and kept a female; I passed his truck one night on my way to the bottoms and I heard his dogs running and a dog got treed every breath on something. I ran into him a few days later at the gas station and I asked about his new "tree dog" it was that pup; I inquired the price? Bought her, she was loaded with natural ability, could tree a rough coon and deadly accurate, most of the time. When I went to the service I passed her on to a local hunter who kept her til she died. Just my experience. Tom

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Home of:
NTCH Honky Tonk Joe
GRNTCH The Duke
Dual GRNTCH Wendy
GRNTCH Cola
GrNtCH Honky Tonk Rock and Roll
Dual GRCH Bumper
Dual CH June
Dual CH Jill

Many of the "Best COON DOGS" that I have got or hunted with were your average joe backyard COONHUNTER that dont comp hunt.. but has dogs that will blow away an average Grnitech..
Alot of the ole timers that hunt for the fun of it or just get together blow some smoke and bullsh!t, have the best coondogs.
Those type of dogs were you turn them loose even after a year or two of not being off the chain or kennel because the ole timer had surgery or something. go out blow through a freakin track and tree up like they been doing night after night..
Papers dont tree coon, dogs tree coon. and HAVE THE MEAT
I know of many pleasure coonhunters that have great coondogs, I dont know many competition hunters that have great coondogs, just average hot nose coondogs...

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REMEMBER THIS IS MY OPINION!!!! No names were mention. If I offended someone then you must have a guilty conscience.

814-964-9399

RIP
GRNTCH CH 'PR' Cassandras Midnight Jenny

PLOTTS:

Grch 'PR' River Ridge Coo Coo Ca-Choo
Ch'PR' Tamarack's Redwood Secret
Ch'PR' Tamarack's A Shot In The Dark
'PR' Tamarack's DarkSide Ofthe Moon
Ch 'PR' River Ridge Ruby Tuesday

Just an added thought:

Why do people invest in some many dogs, I am talking about buying dogs after dogs,, I am talking about the people that have more than 10 dogs in their kennel at one time.. How do you hunt all those dogs and have time for all those dogs?
I own FOUR and that is it...
they all get individual attention, get into the woods on a regular basis.. three or more times a week....
I really just dont get, and the same people cry out cull time because Sally didnt tree consistently.. the more time you put into a dog the better it gets.. if the dog dont show any interest...
Here is some advice and IT HAS WORKED FOR ME..
FIND YOURSELF AN OLD TIMER THAT HAS BEEN THERE AND DONE IT>> THEY WILL SHOW YOU HOW TO GET IT DONE!!!!!!

__________________
REMEMBER THIS IS MY OPINION!!!! No names were mention. If I offended someone then you must have a guilty conscience.

814-964-9399

RIP
GRNTCH CH 'PR' Cassandras Midnight Jenny

PLOTTS:

Grch 'PR' River Ridge Coo Coo Ca-Choo
Ch'PR' Tamarack's Redwood Secret
Ch'PR' Tamarack's A Shot In The Dark
'PR' Tamarack's DarkSide Ofthe Moon
Ch 'PR' River Ridge Ruby Tuesday

and another thought:
Why do people breed and breed and breed and of course breed the crap out of their females and males..

__________________
REMEMBER THIS IS MY OPINION!!!! No names were mention. If I offended someone then you must have a guilty conscience.

814-964-9399

RIP
GRNTCH CH 'PR' Cassandras Midnight Jenny

PLOTTS:

Grch 'PR' River Ridge Coo Coo Ca-Choo
Ch'PR' Tamarack's Redwood Secret
Ch'PR' Tamarack's A Shot In The Dark
'PR' Tamarack's DarkSide Ofthe Moon
Ch 'PR' River Ridge Ruby Tuesday

.

quote:

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Originally posted by TamarackKennels
Just an added thought:

Why do people invest in some many dogs, I am talking about buying dogs after dogs,, I am talking about the people that have more than 10 dogs in their kennel at one time.. How do you hunt all those dogs and have time for all those dogs?
I own FOUR and that is it...
they all get individual attention, get into the woods on a regular basis.. three or more times a week....
I really just dont get, and the same people cry out cull time because Sally didnt tree consistently.. the more time you put into a dog the better it gets.. if the dog dont show any interest...
Here is some advice and IT HAS WORKED FOR ME..
FIND YOURSELF AN OLD TIMER THAT HAS BEEN THERE AND DONE IT>> THEY WILL SHOW YOU HOW TO GET IT DONE!!!!!!

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