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how should this be handled at a hunt?

3 dog cast, first drop into corn field.... dogs a and b go right handed and strike work around in field. dog a locates and locates and locates. dob b locates and is treed by handler. cast moves that direction. about 4 minutes gone on tree when cast gets to edge of field. dog a is now chopping hard but a and be are not together but about 50 feet apart. at the edge of field is a tight woven wire fence. about 50 feet on the other side of fence dog b is treeing on large tree in a pasture( only tree around) dog a is treeing on fence (can't find away through it is actually running back and forth chopping trying to find a hole in the fence) tree is dead. shine time is started. handler of dog a does not tree. judge tells handler of a to handle dog at fence. coon is found and plused for dog b. what do you do with dog a's points. and should the judge have told handler to handle dog a? by the way dog c was of in another direction and got treed. just wondering how this should be handled? should the stationary have been started on a? if it was started and ran out what would you do the dog was not on a tree just hung up on a bad fence?

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you can't start stationary because it is obvious dog is hung up. Handle him and minus his strike if judge tells you to handle. Everyone walks to dog c with dogs on leash.

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Gary i still don't know if it was handeled right but i am pretty sure the stationary rule would not apply because the rule states after the 5 is up on the stationary the judge is to look right away and if dog is on(A TREE) IT WOULD BE SCRATCHED but this was not the case. maybe someone could shed some light.

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thats what i was wondering Jack...i am not sure how it should be handled. the way it was handled was the only thing i could really come up with but i am not sure if it was right? would like to hear input for future refrence. what would have happened if dog a would have been declared treed. she was not on the tree but showing treed as close as she could get with no other tree even close?????

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To me I would say that they score B's tree and let B turn back loose since A is still out on track and head to C. That is if handler of A doesnt ask to handle his dog on the fence. I cant see how the Judge could make you handle your dog that is trying to find a hole in the fence. I would think the only way he could get you to handle is if the dog started treeing in one spot on the fence and put the 5 on the dog as they were walking away to C. All handler of A has to do is wait the 5 and when they went back to find her there then handle her and have her strike minused. If he treed here before the tree was closed or after be minused both ways. A just has hope his dog moves on out of there and finds a coon.

My two cents and may not be worth much lol.

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I don't think the dog should have been handled....... but once it was I can't really find anything that says what to do with the points. If the handler just handled his dog while it's considered tracking I KNOW(rule 17) the track points would be minused. However if the handler was ordered to handle his dog while it was considered tracking I DON"T THINK you can minus those points per rule 5(f) if you consider this situation the ect. But I can't find a ruling in black and white on this exact situation.

Below are Allen's comments on the stationary rule.

quote:

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Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Rule 6(q) Explained
All those years that we struggled with the cumbersome interpretation of how to handle the situations where dogs were treeing and the handlers had no intentions of declaring them treed. 6(q) is a basic and necessary requirement in accurately scoring hounds for their work on a nite hunt cast.
The rule reads as follows:
6. Dogs will be scratched
(q) if a handler fails to declare treed a dog obviously treeing (Judge’s decision) for a period of five minutes. Dog may be declared treed while the five is running but not after the five has expired. Judge must verify dog to be at a tree before it can be scratched.
Let’s break it down into its most basic components. First, the dog must obviously be treeing. That doesn’t mean tapping trees or trying to settle. The right to tree a dog should rest with the handler until it becomes obvious that the handler has no intention of treeing a dog that is treeing solid. This is the Judge’s decision.
Once 6(q) is applied, the dog in question must tree for five minutes. Judge this as you would if the dog had been declared treed.
• If you hear the dog bark off the tree, then the five is broken.
• If two minutes gets him, the five is broken.
• If another dog in the cast comes in and is declared treed, the five is broken
No penalty is assessed. The application of 6(q) is simply ended in each of the situations described above.
At any time while the five is running in accordance with 6(q), a handler may elect to declare the dog treed. If the dog is declared treed, 6(q) is ended and you would start a new five minutes on the dog just as you would any time a dog is declared treed. In the event where another dog in the cast is declared treed on that same tree, 6(q) would also be ended. Start the five on the dog that was declared treed and normal tree rules are applied.
Okay, let’s say a handler still refuses to tree the dog and the five minutes in accordance with 6(q) is running. When the five is up, the cast will proceed to that tree. If on the way in to the tree, the handler asks to declare the dog treed and the five is up, that request must be denied. The dog cannot be declared treed (at that particular tree) after the five minutes of 6(q) has expired. Also, the dog must be seen on a tree before it can be scratched. Not in a hole, bulldoze pile, old barn, or any other place of refuge. The thinking here is that sometimes those tree barks may sound different enough to the handler of the dog that they know the dog is not “right”. Someone who does not know the dog mat assume the dog is treed solid, when the truth may be he is not on a tree at all. That’s why the dog must be seen on a tree. When you get in there and the dog is on a tree, then the dog is scratched. If you arrive to find the dog trailing around or on a fence or something, back on out and let the dog work. There would be no penalty. If the dog is in a hole or place of refuge the dog may be handled without being declared treed in accordance with rule 5(a).
It’s the handler’s responsibility to tell the Judge when the dog strikes and when the dog trees. Competition events are about scoring dogs and that means the good, bad and indifferent. Any opportunity to cut down on the number of “games” being played in between should be pursued. 6(q) is one of those opportunities.
-Allen Gingerich

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quote:

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Originally posted by jculler8
you can't start stationary because it is obvious dog is hung up. Handle him and minus his strike if judge tells you to handle. Everyone walks to dog c with dogs on leash.

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i would of gave the handler his options, either let the dog find its way through the fence or handle it and take his minus,, but i would not have ordered him to handle his dog..and there is no reason to but a stationary on a dog that is obviously not barking up a tree.

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No the stationary would not be the thing to apply since you seen what the dog was on HOWEVER you can't just let the dog sit there and bark treed the whole rest of the hunt. In this case i would say handle the dog and minus his strike because there needs to be some kind of a penalty involved with treeing on a fence.

I say that because if that dog would have been out of sight barking treed then you can bet the handler would have treed it and once they got there and figured out it was on a fence it taking minus. So i guess you could say the handler got lucky seeing what the dog was on. How close was the fence to the treed dog??

1. No Stationary put on dog A- reason being handler would not tree him for obvious reasons dog was not treed he's throwing a lot of locates. Sounds like judge knew this.

2. Dog A should not of been handled, dog B should have been turned back out. But because handler was asked to handle, he or she should of questioned the handling of the dog A. But sounds like he or she did handle, so in that case dog would take minus on track only.

3. Because of senario above, you should walk dogs A & B to dog C's tree and score. (If dog C's tree is closed, not sure if you said it was or not)
If it wasn't you could Dogs A and B into C.

What point was Dog C's tree closed ?

This is the way I read it according to your story.
Some of you are adding different senario's to the story. Stick with original and answer the guys question.

Todd

What rule would you use to minus a dog when the judge ordered the dog to be handled?

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Slick, you Can just let the dog sit there and bark treed the rest of the hunt. In fact, the rules require you to do just that if the dog is not declared treed. There is no rule that allows the judge to order that dog handled and minused for treeing on a fence. The handler could choose to call his dog off that track and handle him if he is willing to take his minus but the judge can't order it. If the cast called timeout for a legitimate reason, that dogs strike would be deleted.

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
Slick, you Can just let the dog sit there and bark treed the rest of the hunt. In fact, the rules require you to do just that if the dog is not declared treed. There is no rule that allows the judge to order that dog handled and minused for treeing on a fence. The handler could choose to call his dog off that track and handle him if he is willing to take his minus but the judge can't order it. If the cast called timeout for a legitimate reason, that dogs strike would be deleted.

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quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
Slick, you Can just let the dog sit there and bark treed the rest of the hunt. In fact, the rules require you to do just that if the dog is not declared treed. There is no rule that allows the judge to order that dog handled and minused for treeing on a fence. The handler could choose to call his dog off that track and handle him if he is willing to take his minus but the judge can't order it. If the cast called timeout for a legitimate reason, that dogs strike would be deleted.

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quote:

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Originally posted by SLICK50
Yes Jim BUT im saying if they did not see the dog on the fence then the stationary would be applied and he would either tree his dog or be scratched. Unless he wants to take a chance that his dog is not on a tree and find out when they get there.

On the flip side they did in fact see the dog on the fence so that of course changes things. If it were me i would handle my dog and take my strike minus because obviously nothing can be gained by having youre dog tree on a fence.

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The dog can not be put on stationary, unless judge know he's on a tree. Rule 6q.

quote:

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Originally posted by Geminite
There's always the chance that your dog will take off and find him a coon though....You shouldn't have to tree your dog if it dosn't sound right and that's where the stationary comes in. If you know your dog you usually have nothing to worry about....

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Todd, a judge doesn't have to "know" the dog is on a tree, the judge just has to believe the dog is barking treed to put the stationary on. Then, if the 6 catches the dog, the judge must visually confirm that the dog is in fact on a tree before he can scratch. That is the rule.

Cornbelt rule 5a, dog must finish track.

Come on Todd, where are you getting this stuff? How do you read 5(a) and conclude a judge can minus a dog for treeing on a fence?

5a- Dog must finish a track, or show coon. which he didn't. So he's receives minus. Ya it says one dog must finish track, but if their is only one dog in the cast.

6q- verify dog is on tree, it doesn't say I have to wait for the 5 to be up to verify.

Jim, State your rules with your opinion then. Cause that is all it is, an opinion.

quote:

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Originally posted by Todd Miller
The dog can not be put on stationary, unless judge know he's on a tree. Rule 6q.

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Jack, Your reading the rules wrong too. It DOES NOT say when to apply. Your Assuming!!!

It says verify, it does not say when. I can do before, during or after. Most likely your going to put the stationary on dog before you verify. I have seen a judge move in a little closer to verify he put the stat. on dog, because dog was fairly close.

Come on guys just because it says to verify at the end of the sentence don't mean you do it last.

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
Todd, a judge doesn't have to "know" the dog is on a tree, the judge just has to believe the dog is barking treed to put the stationary on. Then, if the 6 catches the dog, the judge must visually confirm that the dog is in fact on a tree before he can scratch. That is the rule.

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