UKC Forums - Hunt tests: Why so strong of feelings.

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-- Hunt tests: Why so strong of feelings. (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=303260)

Posted by tjt on 09-30-2009 05:02 PM:

Hunt tests: Why so strong of feelings.

Let me start out by saying I love the idea of the hunt tests. I actually have one dog with an HTX and I am very proud of that. Here's my couple of questions.
1: Why does this subject seemed to get so heated whenever it is brought up?

2: Why do so many people want to tie it in with the comp hunts?

3: Why do so many people that don't run in them look down on the hunt tests?

4: Why do so many people that do run in the hunt test now look down on the comp hunts?

Last I checked we all run our dogs for the love of it. This is why the anti's can get foot hold because we are to busy bickering amongst ourselves to watch them.
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Posted by Frank M on 09-30-2009 05:12 PM:

In My Opinion

The comp hunters that look down on it is because they have a me too dog. Its amazing how many ntch's or grntch's can't tree a coon by them selfs and hold the tree for 5 minutes.

Personaly I think in order to become a ntch your dog must pass a htx hunt, it would get ride of a lot of the me too dogs in the hunts. But if you did that you would also loose a lot of the entry fees them guys pay for their dogs. So I guess its a double edge soward.

Just my opinion for what its worth, couple it with 5 bucks and you can buy a cup of coffee most any place in town.

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Posted by SLICK50 on 09-30-2009 05:25 PM:

The idea of a htx is good but in reality who in the world wants to spend gas money and a small entry fee to do what i do everynight. I mean lets face it no-one looks at the htx they look at titles and that will never change. If youre dog can't run and tree and stay for 5 minutes then that's terrible unless it's a pup or started dog.

Posted by Family on 09-30-2009 05:27 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by SLICK50
The idea of a htx is good but in reality who in the world wants to spend gas money and a small entry fee to do what i do everynight. I mean lets face it no-one looks at the htx they look at titles and that will never change. If youre dog can't run and tree and stay for 5 minutes then that's terrible unless it's a pup or started dog.

then it shouldn't be hard to get a HTX right?

I dont know, I hunt for stress relief.....

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Posted by SLICK50 on 09-30-2009 05:38 PM:

Exactly they are to easy to get in my eyes. Although i guess it just depends on the type of hound youre packing.

Posted by Family on 09-30-2009 06:02 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by SLICK50
Exactly they are to easy to get in my eyes. Although i guess it just depends on the type of hound youre packing.

I only pack hounds that can buy there own food for the next year in hide money thats roughly a bag (50lbs) every three weeks on three dogs....so 25$ a bag with my gas to go get it....is what 8$ a dog a week.........

that dog better kill 50-60 coon a hunting season to live at my house or they are sold for a couple hundred bucks to a locale who wants to try em...cuz I can sell em locale...

Or I put em down with a smokin crater...

only have two dogs right now and a yard dog ...that the coon dogs buy food for.

oh and ten pups 3 weeks old...not for sale to the general public...

If it dont earn its keep it goes....every animal on the farm pulls its wieght or is sold for wieght..

Posted by charterpines on 09-30-2009 06:08 PM:

What!

What is a hunt test I have never seen one around here. What is the rules of one?

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Posted by tjt on 09-30-2009 06:09 PM:

I figured this would stir things up. Not my intention. All I'm saying is if an HTX is so easy to get why isn't there a 50% or higher pass rate. Last I knew there was only a 20-30% pass rate.

Posted by Family on 09-30-2009 06:16 PM:

I like the idea of HTX before entering a Nite Hunt.....

That'll pull em in to conversation

Posted by Casey_Lee on 09-30-2009 06:25 PM:

Re: What!

quote:
Originally posted by charterpines
What is a hunt test I have never seen one around here. What is the rules of one?

There hasn't been any in North MS either. We have voted to hold one in Fulton, MS at my club, but haven't set any dates yet. Here is a link to the hunt test information. http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/...HUNTTESTPROGRAM

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Posted by Virgil on 09-30-2009 06:36 PM:

I've been trying to get one at a club here in Eastern KY all year. Many people look down on the HTX but like someone said above if it is so easy why is there such a low pass rate.

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Posted by Larry Atherton on 09-30-2009 06:36 PM:

Hmmmm I haven't seen any of what was mentioned in the top post regarding hunt test.

I do disagree with the common statement that many titled dogs are me-too idiots. At least around here most guys hunt their dogs alone to get them in shape for the hunts. It is kind a hard having me-too dog without another dog.

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Posted by SLICK50 on 09-30-2009 06:49 PM:

I don't know about all you but i would be extremley embarassed if my dog couldn't pass a hunt test. No offense to anyone im just saying that's bad.

Posted by larrypoe on 09-30-2009 07:27 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by SLICK50
I don't know about all you but i would be extremley embarassed if my dog couldn't pass a hunt test. No offense to anyone im just saying that's bad.

Ive personally hunted with more than a couple Advertised stud dogs that couldn't pass this test on there best night.

A smart handler that knows where there dogs weakness and strengths are go along ways when it comes to winning hunts, especially when at least 50% of what you draw at the local level can barely pick there dog out of the pack let alone know the rules.

Ive been in the heat of competition on just about as high a level as it gets. World Hunt finals, Winning GRNTCH cast at AO, ect.

There are a bunch of very successful comp hounds that couldnt pass it, just like Im sure there are some with the HTX title that would fail miserably in a nite hunt.

Im sure there are a bunch of die hard comp hunters that will say they could care less how good a dog is on its own if it cant win a cast, and have no intentions of trying one or have any respect for the title. There are just as many coonhunters who could care less how good a dog is in a cast if it cant preform on its own.

The difference is money. A good comp dog with a good handler can win thousands in several different hunts, not to mention a truck or two, rather it can tree a coon on its own or pass this test or not. The best HTX dog is a top notch hide dog and thats about it.

Until it is meshed with some kind of payoff its stuck in the mud. I would like to see a world hunt of sorts using this kind of test. An elimination round type where advancing dogs are scored by different judges as they advance untill the top dogs are left and judged by a panel. Sort of like bird dog trials except 1 dog hunted at a time.

To limit entries to only the best, have a certain # of passed tests to qualify. There would of coarse have to be a paycheck big enough to make it worth while.

Maybe a performance program of sorts, where the money goes for the purse??

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Posted by roughcreek on 09-30-2009 07:46 PM:

i wasnt imbaroused when mine failed !! have you hunted one?
try some this winter, see how easy they are !! some times you pass & some times you dont !! one things for sure handler aint going to help your dog !!

all we read on here is me to dog this & me to dog that, handlers this & handlers that. WELLLLL we got a test to prove our dog can tree a coon by its self with no help from another dog or handler !!

bunch of cry babys, i dont hunt the hunts because of cheats, i dont hunt the hunts because rough dogs. i wont hunt a hunt test because it dont prove nothing. my club just aint got none. its to easy. it cost to much. well boohoo !! give me a few minutes & i'l think of some more cry baby excusses why you are afraid to hunt them !!

i think some are afraid to fail without some kind of excuss !!

Posted by Todd K / UKC on 09-30-2009 08:03 PM:

The hunt tests are doing pretty good for no more than we have promoted them. That's going to change. Hunt test promotion is high on my list of priorities right now.

But I hate to see them compared to nite hunts. That was never the intent to suggest one is a better evaluation of a dog than the other. They are different. Very different. The hunt tests were designed to appeal to a crowd that for whatever reason did not like participating in nite hunts. There are many reasons why some people don't like nite hunts just as there are many reasons why some people don't like the hunt test concept. That's fine. It's to be expected. Good dogs will do good at either...or both!

As long as we keep the HTX certification meaningful, it will have a value in today's world of coonhounds. A pass rate of 33% tells me it's being done honestly. I would not be embarrassed to fail one as some factors are beyond you or your dog's control. It doesn't necessarily mean the dog is faulty, just that it didn't pass that night. Who hasn't had a bad night hunting?

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Posted by larrypoe on 09-30-2009 08:24 PM:

Todd,

I honestly think for the HTX to get out of the dogbox, there is going to have to be some kind of payout. Just like the performance program added a deadly needed boost to the nite hunts, something will have to be done here as well. In todays world, a person just has to be able to see a way to recoup some of the cost of campaigning a dog to any kind of title.

A performance program for the HTX would not only give that, it would add a deadly needed boost to clubs on the local level. Same as the performance program for nite hunts added that boost.

Go to a local club now and you will see many more dogs in the hunt than at the show the same day. People cant justify spending the money for the title, no matter what the dogs potential level is.

I couldnt be paid out the same way, the opportunity for cheating would ruin the very things the HTX has going for it. I could be paid out at a later bigger hunt for those who had excelled at the local level though. Any fraud would be glaringly obvious at that level.

Of coarse there would be circumstances out of the dogs control, and the best might not win, but the same goes for current nite hunts doesnt it??

Just having an avenue to recoup those costs would be enough for most to at least give it a shot.

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Posted by on 09-30-2009 08:31 PM:

I was hunting with my brother last night. His old dog is as strong as anything when hunted alone. He ask about the hunt test thing. I told him it would be great to go for with his old dog as he is not interested in getting back into the comp hunts even tho he titled more than a few and did his share of winning back when he particpated. So I told him I'd get the schedule and we'd hit some hunts test with his old NtCh. Checked the schedule and nothing within reasonable driving distance. 10 UKC nite hunts in the next 4 weeks within 50 miles, not one hunt test.

Posted by Casey_Lee on 09-30-2009 08:37 PM:

I think the HTX title looks good myself. It would especially look good if you were studding a dog out to the public. That means that dog treed coon on 3 different occasions with different people judging him, and done it correctly. JMO

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Posted by on 09-30-2009 08:46 PM:

The requirements for passing the HTX are so basic that it is meaningless in terms of judgeing a stud dog.
It gives absolutely no indication of the dogs disposition. You have no idea how the dog hunts with other dogs. Does get by itself? Will it cover another dog? Will it stay if another dog covers it? You don't want to know these things?

It is a fine thing for those who are uncomfortable with competion. It is a degree, not a title.

Posted by jackbob42 on 09-30-2009 09:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
The requirements for passing the HTX are so basic that it is meaningless in terms of judgeing a stud dog.
It gives absolutely no indication of the dogs disposition. You have no idea how the dog hunts with other dogs. Does get by itself? Will it cover another dog? Will it stay if another dog covers it? You don't want to know these things?

It is a fine thing for those who are uncomfortable with competion. It is a degree, not a title.

You're right Jim , it doesn't tell you all of those things about a dog. BUT , it does tell me the FIRST thing I want to know about a stud dog !

Treeing a coon , by themselves , without making alot of mistakes should be at the top of anyones list who is thinking about breeding dogs.
All the rest should be from 2nd on down.
Maybe then , we wouldn't have so much JUNK out there !

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Posted by Casey_Lee on 09-30-2009 09:02 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jackbob42
You're right Jim , it doesn't tell you all of those things about a dog. BUT , it does tell me the FIRST thing I want to know about a stud dog !

Treeing a coon , by themselves , without making alot of mistakes should be at the top of anyones list who is thinking about breeding dogs.
All the rest should be from 2nd on down.
Maybe then , we wouldn't have so much JUNK out there !

My thoughts as well you can ask the rest of the questions, but you will know without having to ask the dog can tree a coon alone without making a big mess out of it.

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Posted by larrypoe on 09-30-2009 09:05 PM:

Jim,

In all fairness, you could say the same about a nite hunt title.

Does the dog go hunting by itself?
Will it make a tree on its own?
Would it have a coon if it did?
Can it run a track on its own or does it just piggyback?
Does it know where to find a track or is it a babbling idiot that opens on ghosts, water, trash, ext untill something else strikes a track and gets it going good?

Ive seen dogs at the top of the comp heat that failed miserably in even the basics of what makes a coondog. They win hunts though, some because of those faults instead of in spite them.

A babbling me too idiot who wont do anything but take a nap at your feet if turned loose alone, in the hands of a good handler will win lots of times against even good coondogs in the hands of novice or poor handlers, so long as that dog barks up a tree and covers.

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Posted by Virgil on 09-30-2009 09:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Checked the schedule and nothing within reasonable driving distance. 10 UKC nite hunts in the next 4 weeks within 50 miles, not one hunt test.

Similar thing for me Jim. 8-10 nite hunts this month within 2 hour drive. The closest hunt test to me all summer has been the Green Co. CHA which is over a 4 hour drive from me.

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Posted by on 09-30-2009 10:19 PM:

Larry, you run enough of these hunts (atleast in this part of the country) to take a dog from nothing to Grand, you can be sure eveyone in the area knows very well what you are packing and if it is counterfeit or not. Prolly a hundred different coonhunters have followed my bitch in the woods. Everyone around knows what she is in every way....good, bad, whatever.

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