UKC Forums - Question on stud dogs.

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Posted by Todd Miller on 09-30-2009 01:56 PM:

Question on stud dogs.

Why is it everybody thinks the studs are the reproducers ? What bout the female where do they get credit?

Posted by rattrap on 09-30-2009 02:49 PM:

Yes the female does!

Just ask Kenny Abbott. He has had several stud dogs. But his fame comes from the great females!!

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Posted by SLICK50 on 09-30-2009 02:57 PM:

In my oppinion if you breed a "top" stud to a brood female that's never treed a coon in her life the chance that the majority of the pups will make it is very slim. The female has more to do with the sucess of a litter as a whole.

Posted by Larry Atherton on 09-30-2009 03:05 PM:

I have always preached that both parents contribute 50%. In my mind both parents need to be coon dogs from a family of coon dogs for the best chances of a pup turning out.

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Posted by Christy on 09-30-2009 03:06 PM:

THAT'S THE REASON I ALWAYS SAY SID AND ???. LOL.

WE GIVE THE FEMALES CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE.

STUDS ARE ONLY 1/2 THE EQUATION.

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Posted by wmi on 09-30-2009 04:13 PM:

u think if a dog is hunted then it will reproduce better then if i t wasnt i dont beleive that

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 09-30-2009 04:18 PM:

The answer is EASY....

A stud owner has no control over the quality of the majority of the females that show up to be bred.

However, a prepotent reproducing sire will offset the differences between the females, and will reproduce his own likeness regardless.

Now...having said that...most folks don't have a prepotent reproducer...they have a dog that will compliment whatever they are bred to. That is why breeding selection is so important, and so often overlooked.

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Posted by HOBO on 09-30-2009 04:47 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by SLICK50
In my oppinion if you breed a "top" stud to a brood female that's never treed a coon in her life the chance that the majority of the pups will make it is very slim. The female has more to do with the sucess of a litter as a whole.

That's a load of BULL.... As long as the family comes from a long line of reproducers chances are she'll throw coondogs also.

Sure everyone wants both parents of a pup they are going to buy to run and tree a coon. But just because a dog runs and trees a coon doesn't mean it will reproduce.

Look at Hardwood Dan for one of the best comp dogs there has ever been how many dogs do you see off of him?

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Posted by Larry Atherton on 09-30-2009 04:50 PM:

Re: so

quote:
Originally posted by wmi
u think if a dog is hunted then it will reproduce better then if i t wasnt i dont beleive that

I have heard this used as an argument to bred inferior dogs before. To answer your question no hunting a dog does not change what it will reproduce. What hunting provides is information to the breeder to make better choices.

I have hunted with brood females before and more times than not they would have been culls at my house.

I would also like to add to Joe's comment. "Prepotent reproducers" are rare.

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Posted by Larry Atherton on 09-30-2009 04:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by HOBO
just because a dog runs and trees a coon doesn't mean it will reproduce.

Hobo is also right. Hunting good does not guarantee it will reproduce.

But i would rather take my chances with breeding two hunting individuals from two families of hunting individuals than any other formula.

3 elements to making good crosses are:

1. selection
2. selection
3. selection

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Posted by John D on 09-30-2009 04:56 PM:

I think it goes back to the old days when it was easier for a stud to look prepotent, considering what else there was to breed to. Many non coondog females were bred, so the stud owner and breeder and the pup owners were all hoping and praying the pups would take only after the stud. If they did, he got the credit, and deservedly so.

Nowadays I think people have better females to use, and a wider range of good studs.

Personally I do not want to breed to a prepotent stud. He would cover up my female's traits and if she didn't have something to offer, I wouldn't be breeding her in the first place.

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Posted by jackbob42 on 09-30-2009 05:59 PM:

Re: Question on stud dogs.

quote:
Originally posted by Todd Miller
Why is it everybody thinks the studs are the reproducers ? What bout the female where do they get credit?

They get their credit when the pups don't turn out.

I get a kick out of guys who still blame it on the female even though that stud dog is in a pedigree several times in 3 generations.
If the stud doesn't have more influence than that , maybe he wasn't " all that " as a stud dog ! LOL

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Posted by jackbob42 on 09-30-2009 06:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Oak Ridge
The answer is EASY....

A stud owner has no control over the quality of the majority of the females that show up to be bred.

No , but he does have control over whether that female gets bred to his stud dog or not.
But , alas , money wins every time. LOL

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Posted by tjt on 09-30-2009 06:15 PM:

You don't mix water and mud and get pure drinking water.

Posted by Larry Atherton on 09-30-2009 06:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by tjt
You don't mix water and mud and get pure drinking water.

Yes, but with the right tools such as a filter system you can increase your odds. Selection is the best tool available to breeders.

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Posted by larry tuttle on 09-30-2009 07:20 PM:

Once again Oak Ridge wrote what I was thinking....It's starting to get scary...

Posted by Oak Ridge on 09-30-2009 07:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by larry tuttle
Once again Oak Ridge wrote what I was thinking....It's starting to get scary...

.

We've both been at this long enough to know what the RIGHT answer should be!

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Posted by Dwils on 09-30-2009 07:54 PM:

i think its all a big game of Chance. JMO .. its just makes ya feel better or give the pup more chance kniowing it has good blood or comes from 2 good dogs

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Posted by larrypoe on 09-30-2009 08:04 PM:

You know when I think of prepotent reproducers, every one I can think of was a female. Even those were few.

I can think of several stud dogs in about every breed that dominated a huge majority, if not every female, he ever bred when it came to 1 or 2 traits. None that just dominated everywhere or could be bred to anything and produce coondogs.

Northridge JoJo comes to mind. Bred to several stud dogs that were way below average when it came to reproducing, and threw not only top notch comp dogs but die hard coondogs out of each and every one. At least 1 litter was 100% for producing duel grands. She herself was over 50% out of all of those pups out of all of those studs.

The problem, nothing out of her came close to her reproducing potential. A couple were way above average, but nothing compared to there mother. Why???? Still working on that, I'll let ya know if and when I find out. I think I might have found the answer but the jury is still out.

Nailer could have been bred to a beagle, and I would bet money the pups would look up a tree and have better mouths than there dams, the rest was a crap shoot.

Bingo could have been bred to the worst me too dog in the world, and I would bet that the pups would be by thereselves most of the time.

And the list goes on and on.

JoJo could have been bred to a poodle and I would bet the pups would win hunts and tree coons. You would also have been able to look at one or hunt with one and know it was one of her pups.

Shes not the only one I can think of, Timber Valley Lucky comes to mind, as well as Lockdown Lassie, Kansas Jewel, Timber Valley Queen, and a few others.

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Posted by Ben Crocker on 09-30-2009 08:15 PM:

Put pups in HARD HUNTING, GOOD TRAINING hands.... I can promise you that is the best chance of one making a nice dog. This is the biggest step in making a top hound. There is no doubt in my mind that somewhere in the country there is a TOP producing sire that will never be heard of for one reason or another. Money promotes most dogs, consistent winning promotes the others. The ones that have neither the money or the titles most likely will never get the chance.

ps. Of course these select few guys like mentioned above prefer to take pups that are out of proven WINNING hounds.

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Posted by HOBO on 09-30-2009 08:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Ben Crocker
Put pups in HARD HUNTING, GOOD TRAINING hands....

This is more than likely the BIGGEST reason for any thing making a decent hound.

Posted by sam kirkland on 10-01-2009 02:57 AM:

I think the female should come from a litter where at least most of the pups were trained and hunted and proved to be first cflass hounds. I think if she came from such a litter the chances are good that she will produce good offspring if bred to a stud that has produced good offspring. The advantage of having a female that is trained and hunted is being able to compare her ability to her littermates. The only way to really improve a strain of dogs is by breeding the best females to the best males. If a person has a female that is trained and hunted but is inferior to her littermates and goes ahead and breeds her anyway. I don,t think the chances of getting really good dogs out of her would be very good compared to breeding a female that is proven to be a first class hunter. I have used this method for a lot of years on dogs and game chickens and more times than not been very satisfied with the results. I,m not trying to push my views on anyone because everyone has to find what works for them. I do like to read discussions on breeding dogs by people who are trying to improve the strain they have. Having different opinions and methods keeps things interesting.
Sam Kirkland

Posted by Okie Dawg on 10-01-2009 03:09 AM:

How many would breed to a stud were most in the litter made good dogs. Why would the bitch be any less important. I would want to know both are doing very well in the woods weather they are in comp. or not. If possible I would want to find second litter on that cross. That is hard to do though.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 10-01-2009 03:19 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by HOBO
This is more than likely the BIGGEST reason for any thing making a decent hound.

Yep a good trainer/ handler isn't going to mess with an average dog. It has to have good instincts,drive and traites bred in. Then a good trainer can make an exceptional dog. That goes for any kind of working dog. Not to say that you can't come up with a great dog out of 2 muts BUT the odds arent good. ( :

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