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Non working dog

I had a situation this past weekend on a rule that I thought I knew the correct way to handle, but after the judge wanted to bet me 500 dollars that I was wrong and the moh telling me I would have lost the 500, im scratching my head.

At the world hunt the moh is the final word so his way is the correct way and you never know for sure what to expect.

4 dog cast. all dogs struck. dogs a b c are treed ,scored +and are released to dog d and are restruck for 25.
dogs a and b are treed and scored + and are released to dogs c and d. The judge now opens up 100 strike to dogs a and b although dog c has only had 1 coon treed on him.
I question it and state that dog c is not considered a non working dog and dogs a and b cant be struck over him. That nite I was wrong. What is the official scoreing of this situation?

Strike in for 100

Your judge that night is seldom wrong.

elvis

how long had you hunted seems like i seen 2 coons or holds strike for a certain amount of time before it opened up first strike again(1 hr) if im thinking right i looked and cant find it now

This is kind of confusing the way you worded it but they would have to be struck for next available befind dog d.

Please re-word that. So dog d was still carrying strike when you released a and b??

My Guess

Well I would think that if dog c had made the tree with a and b then the judge would have been right. But I don't think you can strike in over a dog that is a "working" dog. I'm intrested in finding out the correct answer to this qustion.

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Frank Manning
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Just hunting to have some fun.
Use only the Rules UKC has writen not the ones you think should be there!

i think

your right i reread and realized got another dog out there you should have struck in for 25 i think

This was discussed once before. I'll go back and see if I can dig it up.
As I recall, Rip said the same thing Elvis is saying back then and he is seldom wrong.

7. NON-WORKING DOG:

If dog is not working as part of cast and is holding first strike or second strike, etc., all strike points will be open to other dogs after coons have been treed and seen in two separate trees, or one hour of hunting time has elapsed.


Here is the rule, but I am not sure I am following what happened. If dog D is holding 1st or 2nd strike and 2 coons are scored, it doesn't matter what C is doing.

__________________
Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

Marv,
I had this same situation happen in a cast last year. Both the judge and I felt 100 strike would be open. One cast member didn't agree, another had no opinion.
At the clubhouse we asked about this as an "informal" question and had a MOH accuse us of screwing the guy whose dog was stuck at 25 but was not the nonworking dog.
On Monday, UKC confirmed we scored it correctly.
I consulted the "guru" JiM, and he also said we scored it correctly.

Months later I posted the situation on the internet and had both UKC and JiM give me a different answer.

I'm not big on "intent of the rule" by IMO the intent of the rule is to reward the dog(s) that have scored on 2 coon while another has carried strike all the while or for an hour. If you don't open it up for 100, it is possible and almost likely, to have coon treeing dogs continuely going in for 25 all night.

I would have lost $500 on that bet as well... you would have lost $500 of Bellar's money. No big deal.

PS<This is why I had a qualified dog at home and saved my $85. Unless I have a chance at a formal complaint, panel or appeal... after last year, I'm not entering that event again.

You cannot at any time strike over a dog that is struck in UNLESS that dog has been minused his strike points and then that strike position is re-opened. As far as a non-working dog goes you would have to put the 8 minutes on that dog before his strike could be minused.
The question was dog d carrying 100 strike points?

quote:

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Originally posted by Larry Atherton
7. NON-WORKING DOG:

If dog is not working as part of cast and is holding first strike or second strike, etc., all strike points will be open to other dogs after coons have been treed and seen in two separate trees, or one hour of hunting time has elapsed.


Here is the rule, but I am not sure I am following what happened. If dog D is holding 1st or 2nd strike and 2 coons are scored, it doesn't matter what C is doing.

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right

but dog c has and to go in over it would be penalizing them for nothing

quote:

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Originally posted by Larry Atherton
7. NON-WORKING DOG:

If dog is not working as part of cast and is holding first strike or second strike, etc., all strike points will be open to other dogs after coons have been treed and seen in two separate trees, or one hour of hunting time has elapsed.


Here is the rule, but I am not sure I am following what happened. If dog D is holding 1st or 2nd strike and 2 coons are scored, it doesn't matter what C is doing.

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This same situation was brought up on a post titled "UKC Rule sceneario" by brogy. Do a search and you can find it.
John D, Rip and Clay Lautizenauser all gave the same answer that Elvis is giving on this one and that's good enought for me. I'm betting the MOH was wrong. Neither Allen nor Todd weighed in on it though.

Heres a link to the post JiM is refering to...http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthrea...mp;pagenumber=1

I can understand Rip's point about being struck above the dog that is actually working, but I dont know where you find a rule to back it.

quote:

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Originally posted by Larry Atherton
7. NON-WORKING DOG:

If dog is not working as part of cast and is holding first strike or second strike, etc., all strike points will be open to other dogs after coons have been treed and seen in two separate trees, or one hour of hunting time has elapsed.


Here is the rule, but I am not sure I am following what happened. If dog D is holding 1st or 2nd strike and 2 coons are scored, it doesn't matter what C is doing.

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Because dog C has only had one coon treed and seen since he was struck in so he cannot be considered a "non-working dog" as defined by the rule. And that mans you cannot strike over dog C who is struck in at 25. That is reasoning be used by Elvis and others.

I can't find where Al or Todd have ever gave an opinion on this one and it isn't in the Advisor. But it would be a great one for Al's Advisor column in Bloodlines after the World Hunt is over.

In Elvis's case, it didn't have any effect on the outcome of the hunt so there was no hard done either way.

Re: right

quote:

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Originally posted by patches9452
but dog c has and to go in over it would be penalizing them for nothing

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O.K. I checked out Brogy's old post and remember it. I understand Rip's point of view and it makes perfect sense. I will say I would be surprised if UKC intended their rules to follow Robert's Order of Rules.

Maybe this is one of those rules that could be better written?

__________________
Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
Because dog C has only had one coon treed and seen since he was struck in so he cannot be considered a "non-working dog" as defined by the rule. And that mans you cannot strike over dog C who is struck in at 25. That is reasoning be used by Elvis and others.

I can't find where Al or Todd have ever gave an opinion on this one and it isn't in the Advisor. But it would be a great one for Al's Advisor column in Bloodlines after the World Hunt is over.

In Elvis's case, it didn't have any effect on the outcome of the hunt so there was no hard done either way.

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Yes D is the non-working dog. But C is not a "non-working dog" and is struck for 25 so the theory is that while you CAN strike in over D, you CANNOT strike in over C so that means 25 is all that is available.
Good question, though. I'd sure like to see it answered by Al.

I agree with Elvis but my guess is that Al would side with the MOH because on one as close as this one is to going either way, I'd expect him to back his World Hunt MOH.

OK I made a post on this rule a few years ago.

This is how I put it......Dogs abcd are struck in order. AB tree and a coon is seen, they are released and struck back in for 25 then C trees and is scored plus. He is recasted and is now struck for 100. How is that fair to dogs A&B? They get punished for treeing the first coon and having to strike back in for 25!!

The answer I got from Todd was that is how the rule is and if I didn't like it to contact my breed assoc. and have them try to get it changed!!

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Nite Ch Smith's Stylish Daisy
GRNITE CH GRCH PR Robinson's Red Lindsay

Im assuming dog d was holding last strike.

__________________
GRNTCH GRCH ROBINSONS ENGLISH LOOSER

RIP Loose

I hope you figure it out before you turn her loose Thursday. My wife is convinced you know the rules as well as anyone.

__________________
SMVP

I think rule 7 contradicts the 8 minute rule. I mean how can you say a dog is not working unless the 8 minutes catches it?