UKC Forums - Rule Question

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Posted by engman99 on 06-03-2009 12:05 AM:

Rule Question

4 dog NT. CH. cast.

Dog A,B, and C are treed. Shine time starts and all that is found is a possum.

Dog D comes in to tree and starts treeing,is dog D scratched along with A,B, and C?

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Posted by Buckshot on 06-03-2009 12:08 AM:

(k) In Nite Champion and Grand Nite Champion casts, dog is scratched for running, treeing or molesting off game during the authority of the Judge.

Even if the hunt is over, dog can be scratched for off game.

Posted by Dan Reuter on 06-03-2009 12:08 AM:

Nope dog D came into the cast not the tree.

Posted by jackbob42 on 06-03-2009 12:16 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Reuter
Nope dog D came into the cast not the tree.

Better reread the post.

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Posted by Buckshot on 06-03-2009 12:16 AM:

Dan, what rule overrules the rule I posted that the dog would not get scratched?

He said the dog came into tree and started treeing.......he didn;t say dog came into cast.

Posted by Maniac on 06-03-2009 12:22 AM:

THE KEY WORD IS THE DOG COME IN AFTER THE (JUDGE ARRIVE) SO THE DOG IS NOT SCRATCH

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Posted by Rip on 06-03-2009 12:30 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Buckshot
Dan, what rule overrules the rule I posted that the dog would not get scratched?

He said the dog came into tree and started treeing.......he didn;t say dog came into cast.

Buckshot, this is another instance where the UKC interpretation goes directly against the written rules. Yes if you go by what is written under the authority of the judge is at any time regardless. Makes sense but that's not the official UKC word.

There was an advisor on it a few years ago.

A NTCh dog can be scratched for molesting or treeing off game at any time under the authoritiy of the judge EXCEPT if it comes into a tree being shined.

That's the official UKC word per the advisor.

As far as I know that is the only exception to under the authority of the judge, when it comes in after the judge. Other than that the dog is scratched as a NTCH any time it is molesting off game for any reason at any time between giving the scorecard to the judge and him giving it back to the MOH.

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Posted by Buckshot on 06-03-2009 12:35 AM:

It's time UKC do some major updating to their rules along with the Breed Associations.........or your going to have to have a trailer to haul all the Bloodlines with Advisor's rulings.

The rule is pretty clear right there in black and white yet the rule is not clear in reality.

Posted by Dan Reuter on 06-03-2009 12:37 AM:

If dog D shows up after the judge you CANNOT scratch for off game. It is in the advisor. It is a weird rule but that is the way it should be scored. Dog D is considered to be coming into the cast if it is off-game in this situation even if it loads up on the tree with the other dogs.

Posted by ransom1 on 06-03-2009 12:51 AM:

all 4 dogs are scratched.

Posted by Maniac on 06-03-2009 12:57 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ransom1
all 4 dogs are scratched.

WRONG

Posted by GA DAWG on 06-03-2009 01:30 AM:

D gets to keep hunting..Thats FACT!!

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Posted by Dan Reuter on 06-03-2009 01:33 AM:

ASK BROGY!!!!!

Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 06-03-2009 01:44 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Buckshot
It's time UKC do some major updating to their rules along with the Breed Associations.........or your going to have to have a trailer to haul all the Bloodlines with Advisor's rulings.

The rule is pretty clear right there in black and white yet the rule is not clear in reality.

lol.ithought it use to say any,i thank the breed associations
are going to have to step up and say rules can be changed
once a yr if its not on the card its not a rule.

Posted by DSKennels on 06-03-2009 01:47 AM:

I'da scratched all of them and if dog D was mine if they didn't scratch it, I'd withdraw.

Posted by on 06-03-2009 01:47 AM:

This is now known as the "Brogan Rule"! LOL!

Ask your local Field Rep, maybe they know the correct answer. Then again, maybe not.

Dan Reuter explained it correctly.

Any dog arriving to the tree after the cast, is not subject to the outcome of that tree.

I agree, UKC needs a new Advisor ASAP. It isn't fair to have people paying money to hunt under rules that cannot be interepreted the same by everyone who enters.

Posted by on 06-03-2009 01:59 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by DSKennels
I'da scratched all of them and if dog D was mine if they didn't scratch it, I'd withdraw.

How about this... You're in the UKC World Semi Finals. You're leading the cast with 225+, the nearest dog to you has 25+. Less than an hour remains in the hunt. You're packing a 1st strike dog, all you need is to take your strike pts and lay back the rest of the hunt.
Dogs are cast. You take your 1st strike. The other 3 get struck. One dog loads up on a tree and is treed. Shortly before the 5 is up, 2 other dogs are declared treed along with the other one but clearly they don't sound right. Meanwhile your dog is out opening in a cornfield. Cast arrives at tree and handles 3 dogs and begins to score. Tree appears to be slick ('pert near bare elm along the edge of the timber) but there is some foilage and grapevines down low. One handler thinks they may have seen an eye but no one can find a coon. Cast decides to wait until 7 minutes so they can squall. 7 is up, 3 handlers are squalling and making a ruckus hoping something will look. 8 minutes and 30 seconds gone on the shine time your dog comes in to the tree, your instructed to handle your dog. Just after you tie your dog back, a possum is found.
Of course, no one wants they're dog to come walking in to cover a tree, especially that late, especially with off game. Heck, I'd volunteer to minus my strike but that's not the rules.
The rules says to delete for coming into a tree after the cast.
Are you still going to withdraw with 20+ minutes left to hunt by yourself in some of the finest coon hunting in the country?

Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 06-03-2009 02:15 AM:

let me ask you this if you were out pleasure hunting.
what would you do if he came in and loaded on a possum?

Posted by DSKennels on 06-03-2009 02:19 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by brogy
How about this... You're in the UKC World Semi Finals. You're leading the cast with 225+, the nearest dog to you has 25+. Less than an hour remains in the hunt. You're packing a 1st strike dog, all you need is to take your strike pts and lay back the rest of the hunt.
Dogs are cast. You take your 1st strike. The other 3 get struck. One dog loads up on a tree and is treed. Shortly before the 5 is up, 2 other dogs are declared treed along with the other one but clearly they don't sound right. Meanwhile your dog is out opening in a cornfield. Cast arrives at tree and handles 3 dogs and begins to score. Tree appears to be slick ('pert near bare elm along the edge of the timber) but there is some foilage and grapevines down low. One handler thinks they may have seen an eye but no one can find a coon. Cast decides to wait until 7 minutes so they can squall. 7 is up, 3 handlers are squalling and making a ruckus hoping something will look. 8 minutes and 30 seconds gone on the shine time your dog comes in to the tree, your instructed to handle your dog. Just after you tie your dog back, a possum is found.
Of course, no one wants they're dog to come walking in to cover a tree, especially that late, especially with off game. Heck, I'd volunteer to minus my strike but that's not the rules.
The rules says to delete for coming into a tree after the cast.
Are you still going to withdraw with 20+ minutes left to hunt by yourself in some of the finest coon hunting in the country?

YES and Blueticking: it, If one of mine did it, they'd be in some big doo doo!!

Posted by engman99 on 06-03-2009 02:34 AM:

Me and Jason Reisert been arguing about this for two weeks.
I said same thing Buckshot did,Reisert said can't scratch if dog arrives after judge.
I need a definate answer before me and Reisert get in a fist fight.

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Posted by Maniac on 06-03-2009 02:42 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by engman99
Me and Jason Reisert been arguing about this for two weeks.
I said same thing Buckshot did,Reisert said can't scratch if dog arrives after judge.
I need a definate answer before me and Reisert get in a fist fight.

,Reisert said can't scratch if dog arrives after judge.THIS IS THE CORRECT ANWSER. LOOK IN THE ADVISOR

Posted by JustinM on 06-03-2009 05:45 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
D gets to keep hunting..Thats FACT!!

agreed!

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Posted by on 06-03-2009 06:52 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by blueticking: it
let me ask you this if you were out pleasure hunting.
what would you do if he came in and loaded on a possum?

In the same scenario, I'd give her a brief scolding and send her on. In the years I've hunted that dog I've only ever seen her under 2 possums. That one, and once a couple years before when she covered 3 others on one. Its a non issue. They are just dogs. They'll make mistakes, sometimes at the wrong time.

If my dog TREED a possum, I'd beat her into the dirt.

I've never had a problem minusing my own dog, the same judge from this cast has drawn me before when I minused mine 100 for "quitting a track" although she never came in to us (like the rules say she has to to be minused) but I minused her simply because she quit the track she was working.

But, I highly doubt under the situation I highly doubt anyone would withdraw because they're dog covered 14 1/2 minutes late on a possum knowing that you get to hunt almost a 1/2 hour by yourself and if you tree 1 coon and then survive the next night, You're one of the Top 101 Dogs in the country. Lots of ifs and maybes, but in reality that was a very real possibility.

I'll be the first to say, a dog coming into a tree after the cast SHOULD be minusing for quitting its track, but I'll never be convinced that a dog that comes in after a cast is squalling and making a commotion should be scratched for off game it had no part in running or treeing.

The rule is to delete it. Until that changes that is the rule we need to play by.

Posted by gfults on 06-03-2009 10:47 AM:

Rule 6k: In Nite Ch. and Grand Nite Ch. casts, dog is scratched for running, treeing or molesting off game during the authority of the judge. The Advisor states a dog in a Nite Ch. or Grand Nite Ch. cast cannot be scratched if it is not there when the judge arrives. In my opinion a dog should be scratched in this situation if a dog can be scratched during timeout. The real problem I see is this. The RULE says nothin about the dog being there before the judge arrives. Thats usually all most handlers, judges and MOHs have to go by. Im the only person that I know of in my area that have an Advisor to go by. The advisor should be thrown away and some rules re-written. It causes too much confusion.

Posted by jculler8 on 06-03-2009 12:15 PM:

Advisor is just a $ maker. They send you a rule book for FREE with your Bloodlines subscription, yet people have questions on interpretations because some rules have 10 different interpretations, yet you gotta BUY the advisor just to make a darn interpretation!

What a racket! Send me one FREE if you want me to follow the rules the way UKC sees FIT!

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