UKC Forums - Rules question...

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Posted by Daniel Evans on 05-31-2009 07:57 PM:

Rules question...

What is the rule on agression now? If a dog is growling when you turn them loose, nothing can be done unless the dog interferes with the other dogs right?

Posted by Cody Carroll on 05-31-2009 08:11 PM:

to scratch a dog for fighting you must have both interference and agressive behavior. but you can scratch for agressive behavoir if he is interfering with the other dogs. like growling at the other dogs keeping them off the tree.

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Posted by on 05-31-2009 08:14 PM:

Wrong! To scratch for fighting, all you need is a fight. Nothing else.
To scratch for attempting to fight, you need aggression and interference.

Posted by Daniel Evans on 05-31-2009 08:15 PM:

thats what I thought. last night as we turned loose, my dog growled as they ran down the edge of a pond, the judge told me he was going to scratch the dog on the next drop if he did it again. I didnt think he could be scratched for growling as long as there was no interference. Some people just think they are "GOD" when they are handed a pen and told to judge.

Posted by on 05-31-2009 08:54 PM:

Anytime a judge tells me he is gonna scratch a dog sometime in the future FOR ANYTHING....we are going back to the MOH right now because that judge has just said that he is not willing to judge in a fair and impartial manner. If the dog committed a scratch offense, scratch him. If not, don't think your gonna go gunning for him in the future.

Posted by Daniel Evans on 05-31-2009 09:03 PM:

thank you JiM! Like I said before...Some people just think they are "GOD" when they are handed a pen and told to judge. I dont understand, why some people can't just handle the competition. They try to get people out of the hunt with any reason they can. "PENCIL WHIPPERS"

Posted by on 05-31-2009 09:08 PM:

I think it usually has something to do with what is on the end of their leash. I see it most often when someone is hunting a 9 year old dog with 3 wins toward grand.

Posted by Daniel Evans on 05-31-2009 09:18 PM:

amen. I'm fairly new at the competition hunting, and dont know exactly all the rules by heart. I ended up withdrawing my dog after that drop to keep from getting him scratched. Funny part was, the other dogs went in struck and treed, my dog never opened his mouth, he finally came walking up around us. He made me handle him, they shined the tree, declared it a den and the found a possum 10 ft high in a sapling about 1 ft. from the base of the "den" tree.

Posted by Randy Tallon on 05-31-2009 09:19 PM:

My GrNt has left out a growl on the first drop of almost every hunt he has been in. It is right off the leash and the last it is heard all nite. I inform the cast when the judge asks for any questions or things you want to say about your dog. I tell them that my dog will leave out a growl coming of the leash on the first drop and we won't hear it again. No fight, no interference....no scratch. I have had a laugh or two when someone comments on it and then two(and I have seen three) dogs ball up at the tree and he never misses a beat treeing.

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Posted by Daniel Evans on 05-31-2009 09:26 PM:

I can understand that. My dog NEVER growls!! Im not sure if this dog even growls at a coon? Live or dead! I dont know why he was growling, but when the other dogs hit the edge of the timber, he turned and came back to us. So like I told them, the growling didnt do him no good! so obviously, he wasnt trying to be a threat. I will do exactly what JiM said next time though. I'm not wasting my time or money to go to a hunt and someone pencil whip me into withdrawing.

Posted by jeremy qualls on 05-31-2009 10:53 PM:

ukc

u can sctratch a dog in ukc for showing any kind of aggresion in a hunt,they can scratch one for growling at any time in a 2 hr hunt

Posted by Rip on 05-31-2009 11:02 PM:

Re: ukc

quote:
Originally posted by jeremy qualls
u can sctratch a dog in ukc for showing any kind of aggresion in a hunt,they can scratch one for growling at any time in a 2 hr hunt

Actually that isn't true.

As Jim posted above dogs are either scratched for fighting, in which case that is a dog grabbing another dog OR they are scratched for "attempting to fight".

Here is a direct quote from the rule book taken from rule 4, dogs will be scratched:

"(b) Fighting or attempting to fight during the authority of the Judge. Dog's name, UKC number and owner's name will be reported to UKC on Nite Hunt report form. No handler will be allowed to scratch his dog to avoid dog from being scratched for fighting. When the aggressive dog is known, scratch the aggressor only. If not known, scratch dogs involved.

(c) Attempting to fight is defined as follows: when dog(s) are interfering with other dog(s) during the authority of the Judge by aggressive behavior."

That is the specific definition for "attempting to fight" so they have to fit that definition to be considered attempting to fight.

So, to be scratched for fighting they have to make contact, actually fight.

To be scratched for attempting to fight they have to have both parts of the rule, agressive behavior, AND interferance by the definition above.

Agressive behavior alone is not a scratch.

Interferance alone is not a scratch, it takes both.

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Posted by jeremy qualls on 05-31-2009 11:21 PM:

TTT

If a dog growls in a 2 hr cast under a judge,and it is around dogs they can scratch the dog on the spot for showing aggresion towards the other dogs n the cast

Posted by Daniel Evans on 05-31-2009 11:34 PM:

you cant scratch the dog for just growling. The dog has to INTERFERE with the other dogs by growling. Like RIP said "To be scratched for attempting to fight they have to have both parts of the rule, agressive behavior, AND interferance by the definition above."

Posted by MikeO on 05-31-2009 11:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Wrong! To scratch for fighting, all you need is a fight. Nothing else.
To scratch for attempting to fight, you need aggression and interference.

jims on the ball today.

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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 06-01-2009 12:16 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by LookinUpKennels
amen. I'm fairly new at the competition hunting, and dont know exactly all the rules by heart. I ended up withdrawing my dog after that drop to keep from getting him scratched. Funny part was, the other dogs went in struck and treed, my dog never opened his mouth, he finally came walking up around us. He made me handle him, they shined the tree, declared it a den and the found a possum 10 ft high in a sapling about 1 ft. from the base of the "den" tree.

WHY WOULD YOU HANDLE YOUR DOG DID HE SCRATCH
YOU FOR NOT STRIKING HIM ON THE 3RD GROWL?

Posted by Daniel Evans on 06-01-2009 12:20 AM:

no, he said I had to handle him since he came in to the tree. He never opened his mouth on the tree, I dont know if that has anything to do with it or not. I asked him to show me a rule that said I had to handle him but he couldnt find it on the back of the scorecard.

Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 06-01-2009 01:25 AM:

i dont thank you can withdraw a dog in cast when aggresion
is ??? but maybe that has been changed?

Posted by Cody Carroll on 06-01-2009 01:25 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Wrong! To scratch for fighting, all you need is a fight. Nothing else.
To scratch for attempting to fight, you need aggression and interference.

jim i should have worded it different. if the dogs are in a fight there is probably some interference goin on... right?

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Former home of:
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Posted by on 06-01-2009 01:32 AM:

There is no requirement of interference to scratch a dog for fighting. The only time interference is required is when you scratch a dog for attempting to fight.

There is scratched for fighting
There is scratched for attempting to fight.
Both have the same end result, scratched and written up for fighting. However, the rules applied to them ARE NOT the same.

Posted by Cody Carroll on 06-01-2009 01:40 AM:

thats right. i forgot that the interference part applys to scratching a dog for attempting to fight.

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Former home of:
GRNITECH GRCH 'PR' Hardwood Ontime Abby

Posted by Daniel Evans on 06-01-2009 01:43 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by blueticking: it
i dont thank you can withdraw a dog in cast when aggresion
is ??? but maybe that has been changed?

I wasn't given the choice withdraw or be scratched. I was warned that I would be scratched if the dog growled on the next drop. I withdrew because I didnt want to deal with the judge riding me all night because I wasn't sure of the fighting/attempting to fight rule. My dog wasn't attempting to fight or interfering with the cast of dogs. He just growled as we turned them loose and ran down towards the wood line. Those dogs payed him no attention. I didnt mean to start a thread war on here lol I was just wanting to know the rule. I thought there had to be agression and interference to be scratched when there is no actual fight. I didnt want my dog scratched for something that wasn't a scratchable offense.

Posted by Rip on 06-01-2009 02:03 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by LookinUpKennels
no, he said I had to handle him since he came in to the tree. He never opened his mouth on the tree, I dont know if that has anything to do with it or not. I asked him to show me a rule that said I had to handle him but he couldnt find it on the back of the scorecard.

Well he was right about that. It's under rule 17

"...............Dogs declared treed within hunting time, are eligible for scoring. When hunting time is up, cast can go directly to tree. DOGS AT TREE MUST BE LEASHED. Judges are not to let hunters call dogs off a trail without counting those points minus..........."

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Posted by Daniel Evans on 06-01-2009 02:09 AM:

ok thats what I asked him to show me, he just couldnt find it on the scorecard. I've been on hunts before where the judges dog came in and "wandered" around at the tree and the judge wouldnt handle the dog. The dog would eventually go on in the 10 minutes of shine time and we would have to recast once he finally struck again. I've got all of my answers now, thanks guys! I know where to come for any of my other rules questions. I just want my dog to have the same fair chance as the rest of the dogs out there. Its a 50/50 situation the dog does its part and the handler has to do their part. Which to me is calling the dog right and knowing the rules.

Posted by WILD DOG on 06-01-2009 03:34 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
Well he was right about that. It's under rule 17

"...............Dogs declared treed within hunting time, are eligible for scoring. When hunting time is up, cast can go directly to tree. DOGS AT TREE MUST BE LEASHED. Judges are not to let hunters call dogs off a trail without counting those points minus..........."

But at the same time , this is a judgement call on when the dog is considered to be at the tree.
If a dog comes up and smells the tree of course everyone would agree he is at the tree.
But if the dogcome, say within 20 or 30 feet of the tree and was trailing on through, some would say he wasnt at the tree.
It is a judgement call .
I one time had a judge to tell me to handle my dog, she was more like 50 or 75 feet away but we could see her.
I figured she was coming into the tree and started getting my leash off my shoulder.
she fell treed before she got to me and had the coon.
So I dont just handle my dog unless she is real close..

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