UKC Forums - Fastest track dog alive... track dog not to confused with pack dog

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-- Fastest track dog alive... track dog not to confused with pack dog (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=268412)

Posted by JEFFHESTER on 04-05-2009 02:27 AM:

Fastest track dog alive... track dog not to be confused with pack dog

The fastest track dog I know of is owned by Kevin Moses. He's a plott hound called Moses' Rugged Ridge Poacher.... he can flat push a track in any terrain. We have an abundance of clear cuts and wetlands and ridges. There's difference in a dog running a track in a forrest that's been around for 500 years and a forrest that was cut 3 years ago. I've hunted a lot of hounds for a lot of different people most of the time when a dog gets ran off and left on a track the first thing it wants to do is set down and tree. Which is somewhat understandable most then learn to hitchhike or pack. Which in my opinion doesn't constitute a fast track dog but will make for a great companion for your coondog. We still have coon here that will run and jump out before you can get to the tree and will run like a fox race.
Jeff

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Posted by Justin Smith on 04-05-2009 02:44 AM:

That's what we like ... what kind of nose does he have ... frost , crusty dry leaves , swimmer , etc ..

Does he tree coon fast by the stopwatch or just run fast and seemingly run alot of fast coon ?

He looks like a real sharp dude in the pics I have seen ...thanks .

Posted by CX3 on 04-05-2009 02:55 AM:

I agree, I would much rather have a track dog that can tree than a tree dog that wallers.

Lots of people say that but dont put it to good use in the breeding pens. I wish they would.

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Posted by Justin Smith on 04-05-2009 03:02 AM:

No reason not to have both ... unless you just don't have the heart to go through enough dogs to get something special.

Most folks would rather have a young dog that will tree and sound good than a coondog ... as long as they aint gotta actually do no work to get the dog treeing and who cares if it's a real varmint dog as long as it sounds good treeing and he trees close to the truck ... please pull up and tree before you get into the rough stuff , lol.

An outstanding track dog has brains .. and most dogs with brains are smart enough to tree .... so , you pretty much cover all the bases if you just get rid of the retards .

Posted by CX3 on 04-05-2009 03:08 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Justin Smith

An outstanding track dog has brains .. and most dogs with brains are smart enough to tree .... so , you pretty much cover all the bases if you just get rid of the retards .

Never thought of it that way. Couldnt agree more.

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Posted by Len Machen on 04-05-2009 06:24 AM:

Intelligence has nothing to do with treeing. The reason I say that now is because 3 years ago I bought a $600 pup all grand (never do that again) from a famous dog and supposedly straight up breeder, that I thought might start speaking Spanish any day. To say this hound was intelligent was an understatement. I called the man when he was 11 months old to see if he would exchange the pup for another one or refund my money as he would not even bark at a coon and looked at me like I was crazy for thinking he should. He never went hunting, treed or barked at a coon or at the tree with other dogs treeing. Simply put he had no desire to hunt or tree and was super intelligent but would rather be the family pet. Ability is bred in. The breeder told me my guarantee consisted that the pup would be breathing air and healthy when picked up and that was it. Our conversation was not pleasant and my opinion of him is very low despite his popularity and is now advertising another dog. I kept this pup until he was 2 years old and nothing ever changed. This is one I did not have the heart to shoot but took him to the vet to be put down. When the assit. was leading him to the clinic he was looking at me like he knew what was going to happen. To this day I hate I did that as he was very good looking and so intelligent.

Posted by MikeO on 04-05-2009 07:32 AM:

.22 works every time! cull hard you will have better hounds.

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Posted by jay brademeyer on 04-05-2009 02:13 PM:

that is to bad that your pup didn't turn out. but the truth is that they all don't work. it wasn't because of it being all grand . it just didn't have it. that pup was marked buy bad genes of a dog or dogs in that ped. i think the breeder should have worked with you instead of p--- you off, but he did and eliminated you from his list of cutomers. on the other hand when you are buying a pup all grand or not you are still taking a chance . you pay more for the better ped. because more people are willing to pay for it. next pup you buy look at it as a gamble, and not a sure thing .then you won't be as disapointed . because bottom line no matter how well they are bred, they don't all turn out. better luck next time .
if i sell a pup to someone and this happens i usually, if they want , i will replace the pup with a diferant cross. i don't raise but a litter or so a year so some times it would take a wile. it rairly happens , but in 22 years of breeding i have replaced a handfull. good luck

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Posted by Justin Smith on 04-05-2009 02:19 PM:

Smart is as smart does ... the dog sounds like it was retarded , not smart.

Science says bring me control groups and test groups ... and verify things with as many as you can .

Coonhunters say ... I had a smart dog one time that didn't tree coon ...ergo , brains must not factor in , lol.

The very best dogs have it all ... drive , brains , ability , breeding ...you name it .... but when you walk away from a good hunt with one it's their brains that you go home most amazed at .. usually.

Posted by k.trumble on 04-05-2009 02:57 PM:

HARLEY

NOT SAYING HE IS THE FASTEST EVER BUT MIKE WALTZ HAS A HOUND NAMED NIGHT HEAT HARLEY AND THAT BOY CAN FLAT RUN A TRACK LIKE IVE NEVER SEEN!!EVERYTHING WE PUT HIM WITH IF THE COON WANTS TO RUN HE BETTER GET SOMEWHERE CAUSE HARLEY WILL GAIN ON HIM IN A HURRY

Posted by JEFFHESTER on 04-05-2009 03:55 PM:

Len been there done that

The only way I've ever found to get a good pup is buy a pup out of a proven cross or breed them yourself. Which brings me to my next point the only thing I can say for DNA profiling is that it helps
to keep traders from swapping dog papers. The letter 'B' lined
up on letter 'B' in line '2' doesn't mean squat.... if it was that easy
everybody in the country would have coon dogs. You show me someone who relies on DNA profiling and more than likely I can show you someone who hunts on the telephone or who wouldn't
know a coon dog if it bit him! That being said the DNA profiling does cut down on falsification of dog papers and thievery but serves no purpose in breeding in my opinion.
Jeff

Posted by Justin Smith on 04-05-2009 04:18 PM:

Everything starts somewhere ... DNA profiling is the first step in DNA mapping and the bridge won't be gapped if we don't invest in it and help give input and do something ourselves ... who else cares about coonhounds if not us ?

DNA can say if a pup is out of a certain sire because the letters match and this means the pup is related ... the DNA can say if a pup is more related to his sire than his uncle ... if not , how could they tell us what our pups are out of .

This means that those profiles show STRENGTH OF RELATIONSHIP ..... now , we don't know for a fact ... but can make a good guess that those dna profiles can show us which pups more strongly match up to certain dogs and we can say that there is a good chance those pups have more of the traits of the dogs they are closely related to.

This is huge , and we can keep taking if further if we keep dna'ing our dogs and gathering info ... who wouldn't benefit from seeing which pups among a litter have dna more like a certain parent or grandparent and using that pup instead of a sibling whose dna profile is the most unlike what we want.

One thing for sure ... the less work and studying on it we do .. the slower we will learn .

I think maybe coonhunters assume there is a seceret organization out there that is spending millions of dollars to figure this stuff out for us while we sit and scoff at it ???

Posted by JEFFHESTER on 04-05-2009 04:53 PM:

Justin...

Point taken. I can see how it could benefit the coon hunter. But the only way I've been able to get good pups is trial and error. The walker men have maintained a consistency by line breeding.
There's probably not two walkers in the entire breed that aren't
related one way or another. I'm not saying this good or bad but
it seems to help the breed to some extent.
Jeff

Posted by Len Machen on 04-05-2009 07:17 PM:

Justin , Tell me if you think this sounds like a retard. I come home from work one day and find Jack and his buddy hatchet(my cur dog) playing in the yard. Jack had opened his pen went two pens down and let his buddy out to play with him, and left the other two dogs in their pen as they did not play with him so he left them penned up. This is just one of many things I saw this hound do, he followed any verbal command you gave him, super intelligent. A lab is an intelligent dog and it doesn't tree. Intelligence has nothing to do with treeing it must be bred in them.

Jay ,
The reason I bought the all grand was for improving my odds not a guarantee but when you ask people to pay more and step up to the plate because your dogs are better and better blooded then I think you should step up to the plate with them if it doesn't work out. The reason I won't do that again is i have bought pups for less that worked out just fine from other reputable breeders and the ones that didn't they replaced the pup with another one and it did work just fine , one of those breeders that stands behind what he breeds is Randell Meyers when he was studding Pac Man. I know this for a fact, this man is straight up and was with me back in the early 90's when i bought the Pac pup.

Posted by Travis Brown on 04-05-2009 07:37 PM:

Probably the fastest male I ever hunted with enough to really know a lot about was Pierces Style/Wildridge Style(same dog). He could move any type of track in any type terrain I ever saw him in really fast.

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Posted by Nocturnal Jeff on 04-05-2009 07:59 PM:

I have a young Walker female that will make you think she is burning up a deer when she runs a coon.

Everyone who has hunted with me and her stands there with their jaw dropped when she runs.

A few more weeks of hard hunting and hopefully you will hear about her in the big hunts soon.

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Posted by jay brademeyer on 04-05-2009 10:05 PM:

mr. len don't you be pointing a finger at me and telling me were to step. you tell that to who you bought that cull pup from.
..all i did was suggest looking at it a little differant and said that they don't all turn out no matter how well they are bred. go back and re read my post . don't atack me because you felt like you got the shaft by someone else.. you are barking up the wrong tree. i don't know you or who you got a pup from. but just because it is all grand and you paid more for it don't meen it is going to work. thank you very much.
... its all a gamble . i think he should have worked with you, who ever it was. but bottom line it is still a gamble and if you are not willing to take the chance don't role the dice. again i think that the fella could have replaced the pup considering he wouldn't do anything. and more than likley that fella has made more people than you mad and he probably won't be in buisness long. i have been in buisness for over 20 years and you don't do that by screwing people over...

Posted by Rip on 04-05-2009 11:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Justin Smith
Everything starts somewhere ... DNA profiling is the first step in DNA mapping and the bridge won't be gapped if we don't invest in it and help give input and do something ourselves ... who else cares about coonhounds if not us ?

DNA can say if a pup is out of a certain sire because the letters match and this means the pup is related ... the DNA can say if a pup is more related to his sire than his uncle ... if not , how could they tell us what our pups are out of .

This means that those profiles show STRENGTH OF RELATIONSHIP ..... now , we don't know for a fact ... but can make a good guess that those dna profiles can show us which pups more strongly match up to certain dogs and we can say that there is a good chance those pups have more of the traits of the dogs they are closely related to.

This is huge , and we can keep taking if further if we keep dna'ing our dogs and gathering info ... who wouldn't benefit from seeing which pups among a litter have dna more like a certain parent or grandparent and using that pup instead of a sibling whose dna profile is the most unlike what we want.

One thing for sure ... the less work and studying on it we do .. the slower we will learn .

I think maybe coonhunters assume there is a seceret organization out there that is spending millions of dollars to figure this stuff out for us while we sit and scoff at it ???

Justin, what we have for DNA now doesn't even come close to showing how strong a relationship is.

The reason is that these are 10 markers, and only markers. They are not even genes, they are just markers that show up at certian points and are passed along in the same manners as the genes (the markers are part of the genes).

But lets say they were genes, even if they were genes they would be only 10 genes out of millions of genes in each dog so that would be such a low proportion as to still be useless in making any determination other than parentage alone.

I agree science is the way to go, and if they get the entire canine genome mapped out and IF they ever figgure out which genes encode for treeing, which for tracking, temperment etc that DNA would be a valuable tool for breeding.

However, as it is now it's a valuable tool to prove parentage and that's it.

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Posted by Justin Smith on 04-06-2009 12:22 AM:

Rip , if the dna doesn't show that some dogs are more closely related to each other .. then it couldn't even prove parentage.

.. and to say it can't show anything else is to say you can prove it doesn't show anything else .. and you can't .

What I do know is that I can show in a small , unscientific scale ... that there is definitely something to using those dna markers to show strength of relationship.

If more of us keep hammering and keep track .. maybe we can help each other and the white coats .

Even doing the work to PROVE me wrong would be more than is being done now ..... so to that I'd say , start dna'ing your dogs .. comparing them and then let's talk .

Posted by Rip on 04-06-2009 12:44 AM:

Justin, I have a good background in genetics and I have researched this a little.

You notice I did say that when they do finish the genome and IF they can map out which genes are for which traits THEN it will be useful.

Yes, all my dogs are DNA'd because it does prove parentage, but that's all it does because the markers are just that MARKERS, not genes so that a chiwawa can have the same markers as a hairless breed, same as a Great Pyrenese, same as a hound or mutt. In reality the last time I personally talked to the genetics lab they were using 28 markers, but our papers only show 10 of those, the 10 with the greatest percentage of being accurate.

Those markers were studied and used because they are common to ALL dogs, not hunting dogs.

That's why it's impossible to use those markers for anything else, first the scale is so small compared to the size of the dogs genome and you have to remember they are NOT genes, just markers. Second the markers they chose had to be very rudimentary and common to all dogs, not just working dogs. The marker itself may be an amino acid close to the genetic sequence that codes for the dog to have 4 legs, something that rudimentary.

Don't confuse markers with genes. Say they didn't use rudimentary markers, say they actuall did accidentally use a marker beside a miracle gene that encoded for treeing (note traits are not one gene, but to make it simple we'll say there is a miracle gene that is tree or not tree).

Lets call that gene T for tree, the marker they picked is the transcription factor promotor on the gene beside of T so on the papers to make it simple they call that particular marker P so that if the dog has the promotor in that spot then it will get a P if not it will get a small p. The problem is both T and t need the transcription factor so that dogs that would tree AND dogs that would not tree would have that promotor sequence to tell the ribosome to place either a T or t there when the DNA is being transcribed. One dog has the tree gene T, one has the no tree gene t, but on your DNA profile both dogs will show the exact same letter PP because they both had the promotor in that location, even though one had the good gene and one had the bad. That's the difference in using markers instead of genes.

That said, I do agee that genetics is the way to go, just saying you can't use the markers we have for anything except parentage.

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Posted by Len Machen on 04-06-2009 02:58 AM:

Jay,

Man you took that post completely wrong. If it sounded that way I appologize. I addressed you because I agree with you and wanted to explain the reason I took that gamble was to try increaseing my odds and express my disappointment that the breeder felt he shoudn't have stepped up to the plate with me. Thats all, as for you I never heard or read anything negative about you. The reason I addressed Justin was to give a liitle further background on this dog so he would understand why i changed my thinking about this topic not to attack him either and I hope he did not take the post as an insult or attack either because it was'nt. You can ask anybody that knows me I don't do that because I don't want people to do me that way either.

Posted by Justin Smith on 04-06-2009 03:15 AM:

Rip , I didn't say genes or traits ... just strength of relationship and that is huge at this point.

If things were close between breeding two sisters to their uncle or cousin that was already a proven cooner .... I'd go with the sister that more closely matches him on their dna profile .

At this point , it would just be a hunch and if I was proven right ... it wouldn't mean anything .

But , if enough of us keep track of that kind of stuff then maybe we can help the folks that are trying to help us ....

... and right now , I have seen that play out to such and extent that it is scary ...

Posted by jay brademeyer on 04-06-2009 03:17 AM:

len.. apology accepted. and i am sorry i read you wrong . thanks jay

Posted by COALMINER28 on 04-06-2009 03:56 AM:

How did a POST about the fastest TRACK DOG turn to a DNA post?

Never seen him but I believe there's a WIPEOUT DOG thats been called the fastest track dog to ever poop in a PEN......LOL

Any one guess????........LOL

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Posted by JOHNNY CHAPMAN on 04-06-2009 05:42 AM:

WIPEOUT KOY if theres one that can run a track faster than old Koy could bring him / her here and show me and Dewey if they can i will be glad to post about what a great track dog i saw

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