UKC Forums - Where have the coon gone??

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-- Where have the coon gone?? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=258708)

Posted by Steve Raleigh on 02-21-2009 05:56 PM:

Where have the coon gone??

I am in aww about the scores and coons from one kc to another...just recently the ukc winter classic and GRAND AMERICAN hunt which was held at the same place the akc world hunt was......For some reason ukc dogs are so much better than the rest!? They put scores up of over 1000pts....then akc holds a WORLD hunt at the same location and the highest scores that come in 400-500!!!! Where have all the coons gone??? Keep in mind the dogs hunting in the world hunt are well known dogs in the coon hound world and past world champions!! Does this not strike all you folks as being very "odd"?

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Posted by Clayton Sikes on 02-21-2009 07:37 PM:

Posted by Wmagicwebb on 02-21-2009 07:38 PM:

maybe all you got to do in akc is win your cast you dont need 1000pts ukc you have to have a big score most of the time to win just guessing

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Posted by Andy Edgar on 02-21-2009 07:40 PM:

coons are just like deer or turkeys or any other animal in the woods some nights they are more active or in this case down than other nights ive had cameras on deer feeders and get 10 coons every night then the next week one or two maybe. moon phase and location and temp has alot to do with it i think. im no professional by any means! just my opinion. my coons seem to move in and out also dont really have a homestead. id like to put a tracking collar on some one day.

Posted by Steve Raleigh on 02-21-2009 07:46 PM:

some interesting opinions and reasoning....although, personally I believe its a WHOLE different issue/direction than what you guys may be referring to

Posted by Roger Wilson on 02-21-2009 07:48 PM:

Anyone can hunt the Grand American. Those guys down there spend a couple of months before the hunt feeding the coons and not hunting those spots. When the hunt gets here they drop at a bucket, score it, call time out and drive to the next one. AKC World goes by cast wins so it doesnt matter what the scores are so no one prepares the hunting spots for it like they do the Grand American.

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Posted by Steve Raleigh on 02-21-2009 07:53 PM:

Roger,
I can understand your input and agree with you on most of what you have said....Hunting like that kinda puts a sour taste in a mans mouth.

Posted by Rip on 02-21-2009 07:59 PM:

Don't forget that most of the time after the first drop the AKC hunts I have been in it was like a PKC hunt in that unless it was the first drop dogs are striking in for 25 so that's 75 points less on every coon.

Then you have the countdown tree (which I love) that also can lower the score on each coon by as much as 75 points to the dog that trees 2nd.

It's not hard to see how 500 in one format could equal 1000 in the other just on scoring differences alone.

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Posted by Keith Hodge on 02-21-2009 08:03 PM:

Roger you hit the nail on the head!

Posted by Will Walker on 02-21-2009 08:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
Don't forget that most of the time after the first drop the AKC hunts I have been in it was like a PKC hunt in that unless it was the first drop dogs are striking in for 25 so that's 75 points less on every coon.

Then you have the countdown tree (which I love) that also can lower the score on each coon by as much as 75 points to the dog that trees 2nd.

It's not hard to see how 500 in one format could equal 1000 in the other just on scoring differences alone.

yeah.what he said!!

Posted by Steve Raleigh on 02-21-2009 08:08 PM:

Rip it doesnt matter what kc it is....your logic is very very unlikely...no matter what kc dogs are constantly being recasted and struck in for 25...the countdown will only hurt the me too dogs!!!!!

It is VERY hard for a dog that scores 500 in pkc or akc and and then apply ukc's rules to that cast and since you apply the ukc rules now that 500+ cw is now scoring over 1000+ cw just because of the rules.......(VERY VERY UNLIKELY)

Posted by Will Walker on 02-21-2009 08:11 PM:

i disagree steve, in alotta pkc hunts your always turning back into other dogs and last weekend in a ukc hunt we made 8 drops to get the 2 hours in. JMO though!

Posted by Rip on 02-21-2009 08:12 PM:

Steve, in UKC, at least until this year, dogs were leash locked so almost every coon had 100 open on strike.

Plus UKC has the non working dog rule that allows you to open 100 back up as well.

We have had this discussion before and shown where on the exact number of coons treed using the different rules the scores were hugely different just based on the countdown and the strike rules.

That said, I think now with the option to recast this will actually bring some of the scores a little lower in UKC since it will increase the number of coons scored with 25 strike.

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Posted by Steve Raleigh on 02-21-2009 08:12 PM:

are saying that in ukc you dont recast?

Posted by Rip on 02-21-2009 08:17 PM:

Until this year yes because if there was a split dogs scored were leash locked, not allowed to be recast so that even if there was a 3 way split by the time the splits were scored all dogs were together again and 100 strike was open as they would then be recast together.

Now there is the option to recast if at least one dog is opening (still not as often as PKC where you recast if there is a dog just competing for strike).

The fact that dogs were not allowed to be turned loose if another dog was treed was one thing that allowed the UKC casts to be cast together so much and helped keep 100 strike open. Combine that with the non working dog rule and most of the time there was 100 strike on each coon even if there were a few splits during the night because if a dog was treed you were not allowed to recast.

In PKC/AKC hunts that I have hunted in the only time in the entire hunt 100 was open was first drop cause we were always releasing dogs as we scored them.

At the end of the night the difference in 100 strike and 25 strike makes a big difference in the total score.

I don't know how much an effect on scores the option to recast will have in UKC because you still aren't forced to turn loose after a split so if someone has an "automatic strike" dog they will keep it on a leash so they can open 100 back up. So on casts where everybody recasts all the time their CW scores will be lower on the same amout of coon scored than on the casts where they kept turning loose together. Don't know if that fact will keep more on the leash or not.

We will just have to see.

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Posted by Steve Raleigh on 02-21-2009 08:17 PM:

Rip,
I wasnt saying that it wasnt impossible, was just stating that I believe its highly unlikely......After seeing the score cards of the winners it seems the dogs that hunt the winter classic and grand american tree 7-8 coons to put up that score.....in the other kcs at the exact same place the best in the world are only treeing 2-4 coons (again after seeing the score cards)

Posted by Rip on 02-21-2009 08:23 PM:

And again, if you have all dogs together because they are leash locked it's easier to pick up and go to fresh ground instead of hunting in the same area after all the coons have been alerted dogs are in the area.

You can't move when dogs are out, if you get them all caught up together you can move to another spot so you tree 2, move to fresh ground and tree a couple more. Or with the other KC's you tree two and turn back into the same area that dogs have already been working for the last hour while only getting 25 strike points, plus if your dog is a little late to get second tree cause the other dog had a head start on that track you could only get 25 for second tree instead of 75 at the 4:50 mark.

So, it's very easy to see how format alone explains the difference in scores.

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Posted by Steve Raleigh on 02-21-2009 08:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
Until this year yes because if there was a split dogs scored were leash locked, not allowed to be recast so that even if there was a 3 way split by the time the splits were scored all dogs were together again and 100 strike was open as they would then be recast together.

Now there is the option to recast if at least one dog is opening (still not as often as PKC where you recast if there is a dog just competing for strike).

The fact that dogs were not allowed to be turned loose if another dog was treed was one thing that allowed the UKC casts to be cast together so much and helped keep 100 strike open. Combine that with the non working dog rule and most of the time there was 100 strike on each coon even if there were a few splits during the night.

In PKC/AKC hunts that I have hunted in the only time in the entire hunt 100 was open was first drop cause we were always releasing dogs as we scored them.

At the end of the night the difference in 100 strike and 25 strike makes a big difference in the total score.

Most ukc hunts or the hunts i have been to theres a lot of recasting going on....there is usually always a dog still running track, I also see what your getting at when you hunt ukc and everyone is calling time out after their dog makes a tree...I think they abuse the rule entirely way too much...but hey just my opinion.

Posted by Rip on 02-21-2009 08:28 PM:

You are used to hunting in Il, not in thin coon.

Where I grew up you made one tree, called time out cause the great majority of the time that one coon is all that was in the area. No matter how independant your dog was if that's the only coon it can find to run, well that's it. If you turned out again you were just asking to waste the hunt right there with the dogs being out of hearing before they even strike again. That's just how it was, and you wouldn't be able to score that second coon either cause you would need the trackers to find the dogs.

Where I live now there is a better coon population and you can turn loose a couple of times in each woods without them having to get out of pocket to tree one but still after a couple of trees all the dogs are usually back together with UKC rules and you can go find fresh ground to hunt.

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Posted by John D on 02-21-2009 08:36 PM:

If you are in a cast where a cast win is just as good as H.S. dog and you get the lead, where will you guide the cast? Will you go where there are alot of coons and you can have a shootout? Heck no, you will try to turn the cast into the most coonless den tree hunted out area you can find.

On the ohter hand, if you get the lead in a cast where it takes a big score to mean anything, you will be trying to hit hot, quick coons all night.

Totally diffferent strategy...

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Posted by Steve Raleigh on 02-21-2009 08:39 PM:

John,
in the other kcs you have to have a high enough score (H.S.) to get into the final 4 to even have a chance at winning the hunt.

Posted by on 02-21-2009 08:58 PM:

Doesn't this come down to the Coonhunter knowing the game they are playing and the ones driven to win putting themselves and their dog in position to do so.

You know in a UKC hunt you need points and plenty of them. Before you go to a hunt you position yourself to hunt one of those areas that can produce points. This has been done for years and there are many ways of doing it.

In the other two KC's you perhaps don't put as much emphasis on hunting an area that is covered up in coon because if your serious about it your there with an independent dog that will get gone and get one treed and you don't want to be involved in a calling competition all night. I sure don't want to get off topic but Hardrock is the top money winning dog of all time and if you think he did it by hunting close and horse racing with other dogs off buckets your kidding yourself.

What do we really require of our dogs. If you have one that trees just two coon a night and does it right you will win the majority of your cast and be in the final 4 most of the time.

Posted by john garr on 02-21-2009 09:08 PM:

Me and ol kate slip down there and got all of them between the hunts. LOL

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Posted by Steve Raleigh on 02-21-2009 09:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce M. Conkey
Doesn't this come down to the Coonhunter knowing the game they are playing and the ones driven to win putting themselves and their dog in position to do so.

You know in a UKC hunt you need points and plenty of them. Before you go to a hunt you position yourself to hunt one of those areas that can produce points. This has been done for years and there are many ways of doing it.

In the other two KC's you perhaps don't put as much emphasis on hunting an area that is covered up in coon because if your serious about it your there with an independent dog that will get gone and get one treed and you don't want to be involved in a calling competition all night. I sure don't want to get off topic but Hardrock is the top money winning dog of all time and if you think he did it by hunting close and horse racing with other dogs off buckets your kidding yourself.

What do we really require of our dogs. If you have one that trees just two coon a night and does it right you will win the majority of your cast and be in the final 4 most of the time.

Bruce that was ecactly my point...Good post.

Posted by Roger Wilson on 02-21-2009 11:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce M. Conkey
Doesn't this come down to the Coonhunter knowing the game they are playing and the ones driven to win putting themselves and their dog in position to do so.

You know in a UKC hunt you need points and plenty of them. Before you go to a hunt you position yourself to hunt one of those areas that can produce points. This has been done for years and there are many ways of doing it.

In the other two KC's you perhaps don't put as much emphasis on hunting an area that is covered up in coon because if your serious about it your there with an independent dog that will get gone and get one treed and you don't want to be involved in a calling competition all night. I sure don't want to get off topic but Hardrock is the top money winning dog of all time and if you think he did it by hunting close and horse racing with other dogs off buckets your kidding yourself.

What do we really require of our dogs. If you have one that trees just two coon a night and does it right you will win the majority of your cast and be in the final 4 most of the time.

Well in some KC's "putting yourself and your dog into a position to win" take on a whole new meaning.

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